Ayumi Hamasaki Sekai
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Ayumi Hamasaki Sekai (http://www.ahsforum.com/forum/index.php)
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-   -   Hamasaki Ayumi and Avex face investigation by Tokyo Metropolitan Police Department (http://www.ahsforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90295)

truehappiness 25th May 2009 01:15 AM
Quote:
Yes, the roads were already blocked (of coarse). But more roads had to blocked beyond the scope.
What exactly is 'beyond the scope'? Instead of 200 feet of street, 600 feet? I don't really know why we're even talking about this since it's already confirmed Ayu really has no involvement in this 'case' at all, haha.

ArchangelLegend 25th May 2009 02:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by truehappiness (Post 1955280)
What exactly is 'beyond the scope'? Instead of 200 feet of street, 600 feet?
That's the idea of "beyond the scope" in this situation (I don't think they measure it with feet but maybe by block) . That's exactly what this traffic violation is about. Some roads were blocked, but not all were accounted for.

"Passages of buses and other modes of transport had to stop for a time. Fans tear down the stage, the stage and the sidewalk into the fence have been knocked down, and the scene was very chaotic and frightening for random bypassers, including several children." (first post)

Those passages of buses and other modes of transport were beyond the scope for example. They didn't account for that situation and possible problems may occur.

Now the other part of the quote is about the fans being violent. That's the fans fault and is unreasonable. They are probably being fined (hopefully) or not, but the media did not cover that part.

That part of the quote is an example of the media making a controversy out of this. They didn't say that a month before. But now, some casual readers of the news will probably relate that with Ayu because she's the main topic and is popular. That's not fair for her because she didn't cause that yet the media will make it seem so. The media placed the road traffic violation together with the violent fans as if they're interrelated. They're 2 different things and there's no need to mention that part.

I see the media do this very often, especially if a political issue is involved. Yes, this is the reason why I'm being sensitive here - media bias (not the media itself) makes me angry and it can influence us with factually wrong ideas. People should be aware on how to deal with this. And who knows, those other road blocks were probably blocked for only 2 seconds and media made it sound it went on for an entire day, which farthur makes this situation ridiculous. Unfortunately, Ayu was caught in the middle of all this.

M_aria 25th May 2009 03:21 AM
The law's the law...

jbrat2219 25th May 2009 04:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchangelLegend (Post 1955222)
The unexpected turn out, if it was one, isn't the problem. There were no reported safety issues because fortunately nothing happened. The fine is there because it was possible that the road blocks can prevent other police, medics, firemen, etc. to their destination on time if there was an emergency (like its possible for speeding to cause accidents, so there's a fine even though no accidents happened).

And they did have permission for the event. The problem is the scope or the range in which they can use the area. When Ayu started walking around, that went beyond the scope. That caused road blocks that were unintended.

I would say more here, but I don't want to farthur repeat myself since I already explain my views earlier. But I want to thank you for trying to understand. I rather have someone understand and disagree with me, and not someone agreeing with me while not understand what I'm saying. Thank you.
I think I understand a bit more, so you're saying that permission or not, the presence of Ayu cause the range in which they could use to expand and unintended roads were blocked? (I hope I'm understanding you correctly). And you feel she should have known better and made absolute sure that proper measures were taken to make sure everyone was safe?

If that's what you're saying, I must say I still disagree. For example:

Spoiler:

During the 4th of July in my city, pretty much everyone gathers around the harbor. I'm not sure the estimated amount of people who attend, but I'm sure it's well in the thousands. But occasionally there's a special event (for arguments sake, let's say it's the Deji Deji event lol) that's held which could draw many more people to the harbor. The streets are seriously deadlocked. And sometimes unintended roads are blocked. It would seriously take you an hour or more to get somewhere it took you five minutes on a clear day. But since this person who attracted all of these people (let's say Ayu) is at this event, she is (partly) to blame because the event organizer did not do their job to make sure that proper measures were taken to help clear the streets?

I mean shouldn't traffic control, the police, even the public be organized and prepared before the event? I know for one particular event in my city, they informed everyone via internet, radio and TV of what was going on and how to prepare for the event... I'm sure Kodansha informed everyone the Deji Deji event was going on, but in the interest of safety I think it's the event planners job to inform authorities and plan a proper safety procedure before the artists or whatever even shows up. Ayu was only there for a few minutes, do you really think it's her responsibility to take time out and do traffic control? She mentioned she was going to leave a lot of things up to her staff now, I would assume this would definitely be one of those things lol. I bet she won't do it again though :P Sorry this is longer than I intended lol.

ArchangelLegend 25th May 2009 06:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrat2219 (Post 1955454)
I think I understand a bit more, so you're saying that permission or not, the presence of Ayu cause the range in which they could use to expand and unintended roads were blocked? (I hope I'm understanding you correctly). And you feel she should have known better and made absolute sure that proper measures were taken to make sure everyone was safe?
Sort of...
Spoiler:

If Ayu were to walk around at any given day and many people somehow figure out who she is there, there may be a lot of people surrounding her. That's fine. She can do whatever she wants. Nothing wrong there.

However, this event was made public and they did have a permit for the area. The difference is that there will be more people, more regulation, news crews all over the place, etc. And some roads will be officially blocked. (Keep in mind that the article is misleading, it states they didn't get permission, they did. That's why many fans and news crews were there and they knew about it. By "didn't get permission" they mean the entire ENTIRE area. The media is making it sound worse and the "didn't get permission" made no sense to me especially since this is a promotion, it was planned. Even the police were there beforehand. Distorting the truth is common on the news to make it interesting.)

Unfortunately, the team didn't foresee how large the area is needed and were using roads that was unplanned for. Because of that, other public transportation and passage ways came to a halt. That's a safety issue and the police finally put out a fine. Hindsight, it's easy to blame management for everything even though they really were doing things like before. If Ayu were to stay in one place promoting, the fine would have been to a minimal, but she did moved which caused farthur road obstructions or delays. Damn those crazy fans.

I have a problem with 2 things: the way Ayu handled the situation and the media. The media I've already discussed before. With Ayu, it would have been nice if she knew how much she is a target of criticism in that situation and how the media can make her simple innocent statements turn bad. And that criticism is so ridiculous it went to the mainstream media. She didn't seem considerate either. I mean if I notice a lot of riots out there, the first thing I'd do is stay in one place just so the riot can be in that one place, not moving. Sometimes it sucks to be famous.

And while I'm at, here's a very recent example on how worldwide news can give the public false information. (the news on swine flu was media-hyped also)
Irish student hoaxes world's media with fake quote

truehappiness 25th May 2009 06:59 AM
Quote:
If Ayu were to stay in one place promoting, the fine would have been to a minimal, but she did moved which caused farthur road obstructions or delays. Damn those crazy fans.
Psst, since when did you know exactly what went on after the event? -blinks-

I don't think that was ever in any of the articles. I know you're defending your points and stuff, but it seems like as you go along, you're making up facts that just so happen to fit with your argument.

ArchangelLegend 25th May 2009 07:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by truehappiness (Post 1955573)
Psst, since when did you know exactly what went on after the event? -blinks-

I don't think that was ever in any of the articles. I know you're defending your points and stuff, but it seems like as you go along, you're making up facts that just so happen to fit with your argument.
"Hamasaki visited TSUTAYA, HMV, Tower Records and other large CD stores in the area." (first post)

"she also paid unexpected visits to a few major record shops, going from store to store by car while some fans followed her on foot." (first post)

I'm not making up facts, it's in the articles.

truehappiness 25th May 2009 07:04 AM
Yes, this was all before the DDD event.

Quote:
Also, shortly before the book launch event, Hamasaki visited TSUTAYA, HMV, Tower Records and other large CD stores in the area. In a surprise of this event, crazy energized fans were going to chase Hamasaki from shop to shop, which led to wild conditions in the streets.
Quote:
Before her appearance at 109, she also paid unexpected visits to a few major record shops, going from store to store by car while some fans followed her on foot.
Selective reading, much?

Quote:
If Ayu were to stay in one place promoting, the fine would have been to a minimal, but she did moved which caused farthur road obstructions or delays. Damn those crazy fans.
I don't think she moved after the book event. (also, it's further nor farthur.)

Quote:
I'm not making up facts, it's in the articles.
It's in the articles, but in a different context than the way you're presenting them. It's just like what FRIDAY probably did with Ayu's "I should be able to walk where I want."

ArchangelLegend 25th May 2009 07:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by truehappiness (Post 1955580)
Yes, this was all before the DDD event.

Selective reading, much?

I don't think she moved after the book event.
I've replied to you about this already. So she moved before, what's your point? You want it after? Will that change the situation? Is the "after" that significant here?

truehappiness 25th May 2009 07:11 AM
I don't think you understand what I mean.

Everything you've been stating up until now is supposing that Ayu had the 8,000 people following her from the very start before the event had ever even started, which I don't believe was ever the case, and the only situation that fits your scenario is that she did the event and then moved to the CD shops, which she didn't.

-facepalm-

So in the end, your argument towards this entire 'scandal' is null/void/whatever because most of the 'facts' you've been presenting are a misunderstanding of what's actually been in front of us the entire time.

Quote:
The PR event happened on April 7, at the front of the 109 building in Shibuya. Roughly 8,000 people gathered to see Hamasaki, resulting in temporarily blocked roads. Before her appearance at 109, she also paid unexpected visits to a few major record shops, going from store to store by car while some fans followed her on foot.
Basically, she went to the shops, people got interested, and then she went back to the event, and everyone kind of followed her there (I guess?) to 109 and then the traffic got all blah. And she stayed in one place the whole time. That seems to make the most sense, but even so, who really cares? It's just fans following Ayu.

Hell, if I had the chance I wouldn't really give a damn about traffic and I'd be chasing Ayu if she was 10 feet away from me.. hm..

ArchangelLegend 25th May 2009 07:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by truehappiness (Post 1955588)
I don't think you understand what I mean.

Everything you've been stating up until now is supposing that Ayu had the 8,000 people following her from the very start before the event had ever even started, which I don't believe was ever the case, and the only situation that fits your scenario is that she did the event and then moved to the CD shops, which she didn't.

-facepalm-
No, that is not what I'm supposing. From what you said, you don't believe either case. Care to clear that up?

truehappiness 25th May 2009 07:21 AM
I don't believe that 8,000 people were following her in the time before the event when she was hopping around CD stores. Probably a good amount of people, but 8,000? Nah.

And she didn't go around to the CD shops afterwards, which is what you have been supposing since you have been saying that she "brought the crowd" with her causing more road blocks.

It's funny that I'm still talking about this even when Ayu's cleared of all charges and it's all her stupid management's fault, haha.

Quote:
"According to some news organizations, there was an recent event which included Ayumi Hamasaki in a negative way. However, Ayumi Hamasaki was not involved in the planning and management of the event, and will not be prosecuted for the incident. We regret the concern caused to all the fans of Ayumi Hamasaki, we urge you to understand this situation."
Mmm.

ArchangelLegend 25th May 2009 07:26 AM
You are putting words in my mouth. And that's not even what I was saying. You are quote mining me, meaning that you took a little part of what I said and disregard everything else. At least, I've tried to capture the most important points to the person I'm replying too.

foxhana 25th May 2009 07:29 AM
stupid arguements.

truehappiness 25th May 2009 07:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchangelLegend (Post 1955605)
You are putting words in my mouth. And that's not even what I was saying. You are quote mining me, meaning that you took a little part of what I said and disregard everything else. At least, I've tried to capture the most important points to the person I'm replying too.
I'm not putting words in your mouth. I'm just pointing out that what you've said so far is misinformed according to the information we know.

Quote mining? Uh, wha? This isn't computer science, dude.

I'm frustrated that you're so adamant about being so.. pro!the-police's-side when they're obviously the ones at fault. At least step in and block off the road when you see the event is out of control, you know?

ArchangelLegend 25th May 2009 07:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by truehappiness (Post 1955610)
I'm not putting words in your mouth. I'm just pointing out that what you've said so far is misinformed according to the information we know.

Quote mining? Uh, wha? This isn't computer science, dude.
I used the same information everyone is using. Nothing is misinformed. You have yet to demonstrate that. And you are taking a little part of what I said and took it out of context. And I wasn't using that term in a computer science kind of way.

And I'm here to talk about Ayu and the media. We're going on a tangent.

EDIT: I'm not even talking about the police as my main issue. I don't care about the police.

truehappiness 25th May 2009 07:42 AM
The police were involved and it's rather strange that they decide to complain about it when they could've done something when the event was happening.

And personally, I've never heard the term quote mining before in my life (only thing close would be ~data mining~) and now that I've seen it, it doesn't appear that I'm the one that's been doing it, and you're the one that's been doing it with the original article (and also FRIDAY imo probably did it as well with their "interview" with Ayu).

Oh, heated discussions make me even more tired after less than four hours of bedtime.. blah.

ArchangelLegend 25th May 2009 07:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by truehappiness (Post 1955620)
The police were involved and it's rather strange that they decide to complain about it when they could've done something when the event was happening.

And personally, I've never heard the term quote mining before in my life (only thing close would be ~data mining~) and now that I've seen it, it doesn't appear that I'm the one that's been doing it, and you're the one that's been doing it with the original article (and also FRIDAY imo probably did it as well with their "interview" with Ayu)
Quote mining occurs when the quote was taken out of context. I tried my best to place it in context when quoting her. My reply to it is meant to be in context within the situation.

Again, I don't care about the police. They can be at fault for anything too just like the fans or Avex and might as well, everyone else. I don't care about that. Again, my main concern was with Ayu and the media.

Quote:
Oh, heated discussions make me even more tired after less than four hours of bedtime.. blah.
Tell me about it.

truehappiness 25th May 2009 07:52 AM
Well, your main concern really.. shouldn't be.

I mean, it's basically a concern of like maybe five people here, and everyone else is like: "Wow, I don't want to read the rest of this, haha.".

Oh well though. Perhaps we could make it to 500 posts of debate and get this thang lock'd.

To close things off:
I prepare an expected answer
But what's the use of saying it?
--Humming 7/4

ArchangelLegend 25th May 2009 07:56 AM
Ok, I've addressed my concerns already and pretty much exhausted them to death. But let me ask you this, what is your main concern about this situation?


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