An amateur way to find out if ayu lip-syncs
 

so the story goes.

i was watching ayu's TV version of ASIA TOUR 2008. as any ayu fan would behave, i went totally crazy over ayu's Marionette performance and then suddenly i thought.. it seems possible for ayu to be lip-syncing for this song.

I AM NOT SURE IF AYU DID LIP-SYNCHED FOR THIS SONG OR NOT.

So i did a test.. i will follow ayu's actions from the chorus onwards (as it's not that "flowy") and see if i could sing out the same thing as ayu.

i did the same action as ayu for the first 2 beats when ayu was jerking up and sings "BOKU" of the 1st chorus.. it was impossible for me to even sing the first 2 syllables of the chorus. i tried to continue and it's really hard for me to sing as smooth as her (not even talking about hitting the right pitch).

So i thought it could be that ayu really lip-synched for this song. i duno.. it's just a simple test and i failed. probably u guys can try at home and see if u can do it .. haha..

DISCLAIMER: just in case any arguments/debates/quarrels start here over ayu lip-synching, i am not responsible for it.. :P

yeah, well I did it when TV version came out and simulating some dancing moves, BUT! well, my voice is such a bad thing so that wasn't such good vocal as Ayu has))

I'll absolutely agree with you that the mouth was way out of sync with the audio for that song. She may or my not have lip-synced though, since there was plenty of time between the show & the broadcast for them to dub over the audio with audio from another night. But what we're hearing is NOT what came out of her mouth that night, that's for sure.

I don't think it's a big deal if she lip-syncs sometimes... she's more worried about it being a great show to watch than artistic integrity (and it's not like she's lipsyncing to someone else's vocals or anything).

Well, no offense but everyone has a different voice and I am sure that she has lots of different technics (?) to sing and such.

I'm not defending Ayu because, tbh, I have the feeling she might lipsynched it too.

I think the performance was lip-synched. The movements that she's doing interfere with her breathing, making it hard to be loud and be on pitch. If the audio was of her singing during that performance, she would be breathless and wouldn't be easy to understand.

You can tell too if it sounds too much like the original. Or compare it to how the other songs sounded in the concert. But, I also think she lip-synced that song. Not that it is a big deal.

I don't know, but it's happened to me. I just like, know Ayu is lip-syncing or not when watching her perf. As my observation on Greatful Days's perf, Ayu always do lip-sync. Maybe she had too much dance and move, so, she lip-sync. The secret(it's not really a secret) I know when Ayu lip-syncing is, Ayu will look at other place instead of the camera. Moreover, Ayu always open up her mouth bigger, but the sound is not like she did so. Am I right? Correct me.

But in the Marionette perf, I think, she didn't do that.

I get a feeling you didn't do alternarist's test. >: D

In all seriousness lol alternarist is right.

Plus if you take the audio of all available Marionette perfs (bootlegs, etc.) and time them below each other in an audio editing program, you will hear & see that they're the exact same.

But I think it's OK for this performance as it's really hard to sing properly with the jerking... Though honestly I would have preferred no lip syncing and then a different performance but OK. It must be amazing to experience it live then. :)

yes, you wrong. About cameras, especially when it's live broadcast of any show Ayu doesn't know which camera is taken at every moment, decision ta take cameras belong to the director of TV program. And I won't agree that she does lyp-synch during all Greatful Days perf. Well, se was accused in lyp-synch during A-Nation 08, but i don't think so. Greatful Days at A-Nation 03 is live.
Also directors maybe thinking that it is better to show her movement than catch her eyes, and for me it is really better.
also Greatful Days (2003.07.05 Hey!x3 Music Champ) for me is live and you can see at the end of the video that she is looking a bit up than camera and audience during the singing, and lokking at audience when only music plays, because behind audience there is big screen where she is watching lyrics of the song. Many TV perfomances has special screen for artist

The thing that wonders me if Ayu's not doing lip-sync, how can she manage not to make her voice shaky when she dance while singing???

It was most likely lipsynched. But, I don't think she just lipped the studio version, she probably recorded a live version to lip synch, I read she did that with until that Day... at AT07

She absolutely lipsynched.

It's just not really possible to sing that way.

It's not an amateur way, it's just really simple :)

I guess it's possible that they could have dubbed over the concert...but honestly, I think that ayu would know if she could sing that way or not, and she most likely just lipsynched it.

She probably did another recording before the concert.

I don't mind. I actually really like that performance. I never really listened to the song before it.

i found a clip of ayu performing Marionette in the last show in Taiwan. Here it is!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyKdN4sxsXs

and i compared the chorus of Marionette in Taiwan's last show with Japan's last show. I must say the chorus sounded 98% alike except in these 2 lines (of Taiwan's last show):

"hikari sae miushinai
mou nando mo akirameta"

the bolded & underlined syllables are slightly off from Japan's last show.

haha.. i am going for the details. :P you guys take a look!!!

^so well then why they didn't cut her loud breathing(which proves that it wasn't easy to her to sing and dance) to make song sound ike is this LOVE sounded with brreathing but not so loud? I think it' proving that verses were 100% live, and i'm doubting that chorus was lypsynched.
About until that day at AT07 it isn't proved, because on DVD she sounded different than at live records of chinese fans, and the same goes to 1 love. Yeah, she sometime did lyp synch, but not as much as some people accusing her, and for what i saw - this concert was live.

Maybe Marionette was hard to sing with the "dancesteps".
As long as the performance is good I'm happy. :D

And you should care why...? It's my bussiness if I want to do the test or not.
Besides, I'm not gonna make a fool out of myself (no offense though, seriously, since I am sure you all have a good voice :laugh) since I cannot sing.

I think she sang live, she was off in some parts! they just cut out the breathing and(maybe) rerecorded 2 or 3 sentences and when watching and listening closely, you can also notice that her voice is sounding better in the parts where she isnt moving much(last bridge, beginning), im 94% sure its live(not 100%, she could have used a VERY, VERY authentic live playback though)
and about until that day..., i think it was live with heavy effects

Does anybody have a clip of it? I'd like to try that hahah But I don't want to download a whole concert :dead2 Or does she do the same thing in the Taiwan clip? I tried what she did in that clip and it worked perfectly with no problems. My voice came normally. But then, I guessing what she did in the Asian tour was completely different from that.

fitness? I can dance a littlçe and even do a few spins and sing normally. I don't have complex dancing skills, but neither does ayu. Of course I understand that in a concert you actually work a lot more, but then, I'm sure ayu is way fitter than I am LOL Plus, I do notice her vocals get worse when she has a medley of fast songs linked together and she has too walk too much and jump around like the evolution+SURREAL combos.

I think she probably lip-synched to a non-studio version but I think it looked great!! It seems like she sang it live in the Taiwan clip though?? I wonder what it will sound like on the DVD - though they'd probably make it sound better anyways for the DVD... anyways it's still a great performance...
maybe I should do that test sometime.. haha when no ones around... :)

well you probably noticed Ayu isn't using a hand-mic for this song, cause of all the choreography, hand moves.

When artists use these mikes they're most likely lipsync-ing, almost all major artists do this..
but of course they don't all do this all of the time.. but when they do they most likely use a pre-recorded vocal track specially for the live performances..
or they use it for tv broadcasts and dvd's.. all like teddbear55 said ;)

Oh thanks for correcting me!

^that's very hard to do and so can be easy revealed because of different acoustic in every Arena she performed

lol.. we are not expecting u to do my test and record it and post it up here.

but just do it, try singing the first chorus of Marionette from "BOKU..."

while doing the same exact actions as ayu.. it's difficult to sing it without shaky voice.

^are you studying vocal professionally?

The thing is, in the lives of Mirrorcle World, Ayu actually jumps around in the "wow wow yeah yeah" parts... and so far, from what I can hear, it sounds okay, and not shaky at all. But I doubt any live of Mirrorcle World was lip-synched!

I don't want to jump to the gun, but I think that Ayu CAN sing properly even while doing extreme physical movements. I think that it's harder to sing smoothly while jumping (or at least it's on par) than doing a Marionette-esque dance.

So, I just think she uses a strong/loud backing track... come on we can hear her breathing and singing super out of tune for some parts... doesn't seem too smart if she wants to use such a rendition to lip-synch, no?

if there is any parts off, then it cannot be lipsync, period.
If she used a lipsync track, why wouldnt the entire thing be the same??
It's not logic.
If you play both tracks on top of each other, and it just sounds the same, with a higher volume, then it is exactly the same track.
That's how you tell..

Anyways, Marionette is not a hard song to sing at all,
And in all honestly, I dont think the moves are that intense that she cannot sing that easy song.
Remember, what may be hard for you is easy for her because she knows her voice, and its easier for a professional singer. And especially, male cannot sing female key the same way, so alternist method cannot be used between male and female.
I am not saying she didnt lipsync, but this method cannot be used effective.

i watched it again and it didn't or looked like she lip synced
To me(and I could be wrong):
She jerked around 4 times.
when she jerked up for the third and fourth time while singing "BOKU" she moved with it... like "BO" (jerked one time) KU!!! (jerked a second time) and then one more time to get back into a straighter position...
oh, it so hard to explain what in my heard tight now... lol

Ayu-sama is never lip sync plain and simple

I dont understand what's the big deal... I mean you want her to sound good right? while someone is jerking arounding like that, it's understandable to have have some parts of the performace lip synced. As long as she's not doing that throughout her whole show, I think it's ok to do that... oh, and for those of you who think that just because you cant sing that part of the song, that Ayu cant either... um.. 1.she's a professional and2.She's had loads of tuime to work on her singing and performaces for this tour....

Marionette was NOT lipsynched, it's an easy song, she was off some times, shes is a VERY experienced singer and it's not even a very hard move, even I was able to do that "test" of the first post without a very shaky voice, but I think most people got that by now, happy ai explained it quite good, she moved WITH the lyrics, not AGAINST the lyrics, though that has to be learned first, too, its way easier than singing moving against the singing(or more simple: she starts sudden moves at the same moment she starts a syllabe)..just wanted to kind of complete the thread...mentioning everything important in a few sentences

Actually this has been analyzed to death for months on this forum. :) Me and basically only one other person had been saying for a long time that it is physically impossible for her to be singing that song live. Even when I saw it live, I thought immediately that it was probably lip synced. Plus all of the performances of it that we have bootlegs of sound exactly the same. (as do a few other songs from the concert.)

That should make it obvious to you then that it's lip synched. She can barely walk and sing at the same time without her voice jumping around like crazy these days. How is she going to dance and sing at the same time and have it come out smoothly?

lol, Mirrorcle World has never sounded anywhere close to smooth, least of all at the wow wow yeah yeah parts. People need to do what Melrose said and actually compare the audio bootlegs from the tour. The tv version the audio has been tweaked to sound better (although to me it still sounds pretty much the same as the other Marrionette's just with higher quality audio.)

Please excuse my rudeness here, but it's frustrating because a lot of people in this thread seem to like having their heads stuck in the sand...

I think it's because the term lip-sync implies that she isn't singing and is lipping to some other track, which people refuse to believe.

It's obvious at some points that what we're hearing isn't her voice during some performances, but she's definitely singing into the microphone, so perhaps we shouldn't really call it lip-synching...

After doing alternarist's test, Ayu could have been singing while jerking around. I just tried it now and the movements don't interrupt the breathing much, meaning being on pitch and being very audible has a high possiblity. Whether or not she did lip-synch, I can't say definitely.

My theory is that she synchs for the majority of the performance, up until she and her dancers "break free", so to speak, and then she proceeds to sing again. There were very noticeable differences in the quality/sound of her voice towards the end of the song between her shows on 6/28 and 6/29, both of which I was able to see live.

No actually.. But i find it very interesting to study the relationship between ayu's movements and her vocals.. :P

i already pointed out the 2 extremely minor differences between the 2 videos. and these extremely minor diff may just be due to diff sound qualities of the 2 videos.

i actually played both tracks on top of each other and it's exactly the same. But i was just being critical by pointing out 2 very extremely minor differences.

Why dont u do the same thing and play both tracks on top of each other and see if it's the same!! u will be surprised.

are you saying this on behalf of ayu? or u admit that u are a better singer than ayu? :P

And since u are a female, why dont u try it? really.

I always believed this theory until Marionette.

that means u didnt jerk hard enough as me.. haha jk! :P

as i said, this is a very amateur way of finding out if ayu lip syncs. i cant guarantee anything. but from my point of view, ayu did lip sync for this song as i am not convinced that she can sing BOKU without jerky voice.

I think this argument is kinda funny. Just because people in the forum can't sing while moving like ayu doesn;t mean that ayu can't. She is a professionally trained singer and has been doing it for 10 years. Of course she's gonna know some tricks to help her with her breathing while singing and dancing.

Still I do believe that ayu does lip-sync sometimes during concerts, especially recently with the whole ear thing. But at least she does it semi-live. She propably plays back a recording from a rehersal or something. At least she's not like the JE bands where the ACTUAL song is just playing while they jump around and pretend to sing (Oh I still cringe when I watch the infamous Yamapi MS moment X_X)

it is possible to sing this song with such movements, as it possible with alterna, he just making her shows more amazing and some people could not belive that it possible to do without cheating.
I played both tracks, and well, i want to admit that chorus is pretty similar, but i can't hear much on HK rip so i would agree that it is similar. anyway verses is 100% live for me

to find out if they are the same, the only real way is to invert one, if all the vocals vanish that way, its playback, if you put them on each other they sound the same because you hear both, they sound more full and you dont hear mistakes very good, its kind of the worst way to find out if its the same, bacause you see NOTHING from that, we have to wait for the dvd-version of marionette to really compare

Same here, very funny thread, since some unprofessional persons CAN'T sing as her then she must lip synch lol have you more example like this, it makes my day ?! Ne don't scare me, I hope you didn't sing with your throat :rolleyes

Have you short memories too ? She does hard training, she is a pro, not you if right ?! She knows how to use her voice, if not better to stop, what a shame for a singer.

I personally never got prob in my dance class while dancing hard and counting the times for my students since I'm used to and I know how to use my breathing and all. And yes, I have no prob to sing and dance either. You know how to use your breathing and body or you don't.

What is even more funny is that I heard a late Marionette perf, ears bleeding, completely ugly for my ears, the TV has been heavily edited !!! Maybe not the same perf *shrug* but while using a lip synch, use something good, my ears will be very happy u_u....

I don't say she doesn't use lip synch, she surely does often but to base your decision because YOU, you can't sing it's funny and ridiculous to death. If you can't dance, are you saying that others use a trick because you, you can't do it ? If you can't sew, knit ..... same ? If you run slower than someone else, does that person used doping ? o-O

And the : you didn't jerk as much than me .... no comment, really !

Base your facts on something we can trust, I don't see the point to claim I can't do it so she can't do it either lol she maybe used lip synch or no ... I don't care, it was far to be a perfect perf anyway, then ... actually it fly over my head, who do not use lip synch in live ? And it's not like if she only use lip synch, where is the big deal, won't stop me to sleep anyway.

The fact you have a different opinion, and you are frustrated that other people have other opinions different from yours doesn't mean you are right and that they have their heads stuck in the sand. Get frustrated all you want (that's not anybody business, much less mine :laugh), people can deduce whatever they want, unless there's some pretty solid truth that you can bring to this thread like showing that her mouth was completely closed and that sound came out of it. Period. Basing it because in certain performances it happened differently is ridiculous. There are days I can climb several floors through stairs and feel completely fine and there are days I can climb the same ammount of stairs and get exhausted.

And your explanation to my quote didn't make it any obvious to me. I'm not saying she NEVER lip synchs, but I said that other things can explain how can someone be able to sing and dance at the same time without their voices getting flawed. I'm not a singer, far from it, and I can, because I'm quite fit in my cardiopulmonary resitance (I can do a lot of moves and heavy exercises before getting a heavy breathing and shorted breathness due to aerobic exercises). There are days my resistance drops out to a considerable ammount, that's called overtraining, but I can get my good performance back once I give it the proper rest. A person who has their head stuck in the sand are those who only think the only reason why would someone be able to dance and sing at the same time would be "lip-synching". Not necessarily it will be that. ;)

I think it has already been pretty obvious right now that Ayu is not one who does the standard kind of lip-synching. If there's anything, she would use strong backing vocals to cover up for whatever problems she might encounter (while doing choreography etc). I mean if I were Ayu, I would find it so funny, hilarious and annoying and hypocritical that if I'm lip-synching; my back up singers are still singing their harmonies and chords...

Of course, before encountering this incident, I've always thought that lip-synching just means mouthing to the CD recording, and not singing at all. But at least now I know that "lip-synching" can also refer to singing to a loud backing track etc.

Basically, it's just hypocritical to be breathing heavily, sounding horribly out of tune in a recorded, ready-to-be lip-synched track, and getting your chorus singers to sing while you are actually just lip-synch. Don't give me all that crap about how this business is always "fake" and 'superficial'. I've heard of singers who lip-synch, and they certainly don't do what Ayu has done. They don't even show signs of breathing, and they sound PERFECT, since it's a lip-synch.

you can think whatever u want. as i said. it's an amateur method.

oh nvm, u dont understand. i suggest u stop replying to this thread. and i suggest u heed my advice. :)

lol. You don't have to be a professional singer or dancer to know because it is basic physics of the human body. Take Namie, BoA, Koda - all of which are much better at dancing and singing at the same time and give them the Marionette choreography. I'm sure that none of them could do it without having those jerky movements effecting their voice.

It's not that people have a different opinion than me, that's fine. It's that this subject should no longer be a matter of opinion - the evidence is extremely blatant to anyone that is willing to actually look with objective eyes. Even when actual proof is posted of Ayumi lip syncing - I'm talking video and audio evidence, people still post stuff like "Ayumi-sama would never lip sync."

When did I ever say that? This is about the type of movement that she is doing, not whether she can in general dance and sing at the same time. There are several artists that can dance and sing well at the same time, but as I just pointed out, none of them would be able to have their voice come out smoothly during Marrionette - but of course there is no way to absolutely prove that other than to use basic common sense.

Pretty nice mistake as for me. You don't have to be professional swimmer to know that it's just impossible to swim so fast.
Well, in fact singing as swimming when you doing it professionaly for many years making your lungs much bigger than other people's and the same with voice - they're studying to control it and breathing helps it.

:sigh this has nothing to do with lung capacity. No matter who you are if you jerk your chest and neck violently while singing - IT WILL EFFECT YOUR VOICE. I just don't see how anyone can believe after watching 10 years of tv performances (which are all 100% live) where she does not move nearly as much in Marrionette, her voice is no where close to stable much of the time. Yet in Marrionette she gyrates all over the place and her voice is completely smooth and some people have no trouble believing that it's live. Never mind the fact that ever performance clip we have of it sounds exactly the same with the only difference being audio quality.

&the movement in marionete isn't so much hard and wild as you saying them to be lol

For singing, yes it certainly is.

I guess there might be a little misunderstanding then. :bchuck When I first said that about dancing and singing, I was replying to rusuke, because I thought he was asking a generic question, but I was not referring to the marionette performance. Actually, as I've posted in my previous posts in this thread, I still haven't seem this paticular marionette performance you guys are talking about, so I can't give an opinion on it, and I wouldn't be insane to give my opinion on something I haven't even watched. I was just trying to justify that there's a reason why ayu could dance and sing to some songs without getting her voice flawed. Depending on the dance and song it is possible, specially because I believe ayu is fit. The only clip I've seem of marionette so far was the taiwanese clip alternarist posted there of ayu doing moves simillar to those in the marionette PV. I tried the ones that play in that clip at home while singing and my voice came out perfectly, with no flaws, but then I assume the other ayu did the moves were actually more complex and made it impossible, I dunno..I'd have to watch it, but I don't feel like downloading a whole concert just for that.

^aaah I see. I was under the assumption that you had seen the performance. :)

I totally agree with u. Although it may be a ridiculous way to prove tat ayu lip-synched, at least i did provided my reasons.

All those who said that "ayu is a professional singer, hence she will not lip-synched" are not presenting well supported evidence.

This is your assumption number 1. You cannot generalise all activities and treat them the same way. If i have been walking for many years, does that make me walk faster as i get older? No. In fact, its the direct opposite.

Your reasoning doesnt holds through.

This is your assumption number 2. You are not ayu. You are not there doing what ayu is doing. I dont think you have done my test. So i suggest you stop replying with ur assumptions.

^i did your test, and i sung it the same way awful as i sung it without any movements

and your example with walking isn't right, because singing is a skill that can be improved, and walking also but you wouldn't walk slower because of geting older, you know there are some grannys that can go much faster than youy, it all depends on your style of life

Alright noted that u feel that ayu doesnt lip-sync.

Next comment please.

Nope, im neither singing nor dancing professionally, but i was able to do it without a big difference in my voice(recorded it once with and once without movements and it was almost the same), her dances are made to fit her songs, also, someone said she started singing for real after she "breaks free" ---total ********, it sounds way better after she "breaks free" than before, because she makes much more natural movements and why would you lipsynch if yo0u sound better live?

and im no person saying ayu doesnt lipsynch, just read the evolution from AT07 and CDL0708 the same? thread, i just say shes not synching marionette AT08 TV-version

and you didnt explain an amateur way, you explained an useless way, because you were thinking: if i cant do it, nobody can!

@ ImpactBreaker
She did do almost the same movements she did in the pv, nothing more complex, id rather say its easier in some parts

Then you are some kind of super-human. :) Also, there are other reasons for why Marrionette is lip synced other than this, but they have been posted about 100 times by now. :)

You have no right to call my opinion "total ********". I was AT TWO the concerts, I was able to see/hear what it was really like without ANY of avex's post-concert editing and that is what I heard.

For the last freaking time: she lipsynchs with the jerky movements because it is physically impossible to sing with the way she's moving. All of you who've "done the test" and think it's possible to sing normally while jerking around like that are not doing it properly. It's not possible.

Thank you. :) And it's odd that we were at the same concert and both went to the Hana Yori Dango movie but never met, haha. :)

I know, right? What were the odds of us not running into each other? >__>

uhm, yeah. Thank you for revealing. :yes:thud

For this, I LOVE YOU.

i just hate it when pple try to convince me that ayu doesnt lip sync without any form of evidence.

Worse still, by telling me ayu doesnt lip sync as she is a good singer. -______-

She forgot her marionettelyrics on at least one concert(Yoyogi, April 5th, read it in some review in this forum,it also said her voice was "wavery" in it), also, I neither trust your ears, nor your memory, though I normally wouldn't trust this review,too , I see no point in lying that she forgot her lyrics and how can you forget your lyrics and sound bad on playback?

@ alternarist
i hate it when people try to convince me that ayu lipsynch without good evidence, for me, not being able to sing while doing that dance and ONE person saying he/she has such a good brain that he/she can remember every notes lenght and exact pitch and can compare them with just listening to both once in a loud hall just arent good evidence
and for you ayu forgettin her lyrics in one performance and being off isnt evidence?

^ u can hate me forever i care.. if you hate me, then dont even come near me. i can be a very horrible person. Just ask Melrose and zoomzoom.

i didnt say it is a good evidence hence i said it is an AMATEUR way to find out if ayu lip-syncs, just in case u missed out that word. i am definitely not interested in convincing anybody that ayu lip-syncs or ayu didnt lip-syncs.

i just wanna bring out the point that being able to sing perfectly while dancing jerky movements MAY seem to imply that it was lip-synched as it is very difficult.

For those pple who strongly believe that ayu didnt lip sync as u are able to sing perfectly while dancing jerky movements, good for you. I have nothing to say.

never said i hate you, just trying to convince someone without good evidence
and if youre not trying to convince anyone, why are you reacting so weird to people saying shes not synching? shouldnt you just not mind it? and why are you even making such a thread? xD this is enquiries, so i think were allowed to say our opinion, to0o, arent we? xD i mean, its a question and answer kind of forum, isnt it?

oh, and i never tried to convince you, either, i just wanted to point out why the chance that its live is higher than the chance that its synched, because your post seemed like the lipsynch possibility is higher than the live one, so i just wanted to say it could have been live, too(im not 100% sure myself, if its synched well probably know on the 28th)

Of cos i absolutely dont mind pple who believe that ayu DON'T lip sync. But if you wanna put it in a way that sounds like "I hate it when people tries to convince me......." and it's directed at me, get lost if u hate me or whatever. I really couldn't care less. and i don't mean to be rude cos i really couldn't care less.

You are allowed to say ur opinion of cos. If your opinions are constructive even if totally opposite opinions from me, i am fine with it.

If your opinions are rude and sounds like u can't accept my idea, den honestly speaking, you shld be leaving this thread immediately instead of trying to find trouble with me.

why isnt it contructive if i read somewhere that she forgot her text in marionette on the tour and that the amateur way doesnt work, because some people can and others cant do it? sorry if i was rude, that wasnt my intention and im not trying to find trouble, either, i just cant really express what i want to say because my english itoo bad and i dont know enough words, so i often use these rude expressions, i dont know other ways to say what i want to say, and about the "i hate it when people...", just wanted to connect my post with yours that way, please dont take it that serious