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Ayumi Hamasaki is the xxxxx of Japan
Ayumi Hamasaki gets compared to ALOT of different western artists - Britney Spears and Madonna come up alot. But she's really only the Britney in popularity, not in who she is. She's only the Madonna in scale - how big & flashy her shows are.
But what western artist REALLY has the most things in common with Ayumi Hamasaki? Forgetting about how popular they are, forgetting about the superficial things - thinking about an artist who, at their core, is very similar to Ayu. I want you all to read what's under the spoiler. This is something I've written about A DIFFERENT SINGER - but it could all easily apply to Ayu. I've shared it with a few other people & gotten some interesting comments. Spoiler:
What's interesting to note, really, are the differences. At their core, Ayu and this singer are very similar in how they approach things, as well as how the die-hard fans see them. However, marketing and production teams have caused them to go in two different directions. One has gone on to sell 50 million albums, the other, only about 15 million. One is not taken seriously as an "artist" by the general public and is instead considered a pop star, while the other is absolutely an artist, and not a pop star at all. One has made insane amounts of money with CD sales, merchandise, cartoon versions of herself, and commercial endorsements. The other one would never be taken seriously if she did things like that. They're both prolific songwriters who write honestly about their thoughts & feelings, with very unique and epic concerts, whose style changes all the time, and who are very much in control of their image. So then why has one become a pop legend, an icon and goddess to so many more people, and why has the other faded into underground, artsy obscurity over time? Is it a cultural difference, where lyrical honesty is more appreciated and more of a selling point in Japan? Was Ayu just lucky she had the production team she did? Was Ayu lucky she debuted as early in life as she did (releasing poker face at 19 where the other singer released her first solo album at 28), making her more cute and more eligible as a teen idol? What makes Ayu so much more marketable than the other singer? Click on the spoiler to find out who the other singer is, and if any of you out there are fans of hers, let me know your thoughts. Spoiler:
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Wow, thats an really interesting topic, good read, thanks^^
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That explained Ayumi perfectly--I couldn't believe you were talking about her!! :thud I really don't know that much about that singer, other than a few songs she released. But if that's really how she is... Ayu is definitely the ___ of Japan. :O
Lyrics are certainly more appreciated in Japan - or maybe the Eastern world in general - compared to the US. In the US, to be famous, it's strictly about knowing somebody or having a crap load of money; to remain famous, you have to sell yourself out and go with the flow, not giving yourself hardly any room to be unique. But in Japan, as you can see with Ayumi, people get chances. Many get second chances (again, as is the case with Ayumi). And people can become and remain popular for various reasons, being lyrics (Ayu), image (Kuu), incredible fanbase (Namie), anime or video games (Nami Tamaki), side jobs as a producer or whatever in the industry (Zeebra), past experience (AI), collaborations (VERBAL)...and dozens of other reasons, including real talent or, yes, who you may know in the business. I also believe that age does play a huge factor in both the Eastern and Western world. We see "old" singers every day steadily lose popularity to seventeen year old rising stars who don't have nearly as much experience, and often not as much talent; those who become huge rarely are first known past early twenties. In Ayu's case, I really believe that she got lucky. She was extremely fortunate to be picked up and given a second chance by a head of the overall biggest record label in Japan. At the time, her voice wasn't that good at all, she didn't have that great of an image, and nobody yet knew about her talent for writing. Ayumi deserves her success, but she was lucky to have gotten such a boost so quickly. In the case of the other singer..... From what I've heard of her music, she's always been pretty non-mainstream, or at least different than what you'd normally hear on the radio. And her image is pretty plain. Nothing about her stands out at first glance (besides maybe her hair, hah), though she is a good singer and deserves more recognition. Her age didn't help, either, as I said before. She may have had a better chance in other countries, but considering she's an American artist, I'm kinda surprised she's known at all. |
It's funny how my ex loves Tori, while hates Ayu.
The Idol image really plays a role, because of how music has become ever so increasing image related. Ayu has the advantage in age and image. We even have some fans here implying that if Sunrise/Sunset covers were better, the single would be better... |
imo Ayu is like Madonna cuz they are controversal performers and singer-songwritters (yeah, Madge writes most of her lyrics too, and most of her hardcore fans can really relate themselves to her lyrics...) that are able to stay fresh over the years by having a tight control over their own images and by refusing to live from the past (thanks God both of them don't listen to their fans xD) They work almost in the same way, that's way imo they are very much alike
Tori Amos for sure is an amazing artist, but imo they do things on different ways... Ayu has created herself to be a pop icon, while Tori is a musician, but not a pop icon at all... IMO the "problem" with Tori is that the kind of music she does is made to appeal to a veyr specific public, while Ayu's (and pop music in general) is made to have a massive liking. |
OMG you guys are posting such intelligent thiiinnngggs!!! Deli's tears are flowing like waterfalls!!
Thanks so much for your input so far, I'm soooo curious what sorts of things people will want to discuss here. |
Btw, I hope i'm not being an ass, but A LOT of female artists fits this text about Tori... Most of those who archieve a legendary status have tight control over their own image and music, are said to be amazing live (well, fans always find everything amazing live) and release stuff that can be really hated by most of their following... Madonna, Beyonce, Bjork, Lady Gaga, Ayumi, Tori, Mylene Farmer, Emilie Simon, Barbra, Cher, Marisa Monte, Hikaru Utada, Ivete Sangalo, etc...
You need to be like this in order to be relevant =) |
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^^^ hahahhaha. Random but funny.
Anyway, you guys are expressing yourselves very well. I feel bad that I can't compare anything to anyone or vise versa since I don't know much about Tori. But I think there are many more artist in the world that have had this experience. We all in everyday lives just find a way to put aside our tragedies and put our stories into something maybe not Lyrics but we all find a way to put everything that's happened to us and put all that energy into something productive to our taste. Or at least that's how I feel! :) |
Andrenekoi - you're KINDA being an ass, but.... not really. My point really isn't so much that Ayu is the Tori Amos of japan, but that no comparison is really gonna be accurate, you know? There's no point in saying "(j-artist) is the (so-and-so) of japan" because it ALL depends on marketing.
A record label could take a potential diva like either Ayu or Tori - who both obviously had very similar potential - and turn them into basically whatever they want. If one exec decides that someone isn't marketable, then they won't be. But if they really like the artist, they can really push them and turn them into a Madonna or Lady Gaga if they want. Keeping it with western artists, both Lady Gaga and Tori could write their own songs & play piano, why is Tori off in the background but Lady Gaga is the queen of top 40 radio right now? It coulda gone either way for both of them, really. |
^Well, as I said... Tori choose to make a kind of music that apeals to a specific listerner... It's not that she isn't good or anything like that, but there is less people who like the way she works... and she knows it, and she releases stuff this public like
You can promote a product a lot, people are only going to buy it if they like it... there are amazing artsts that are popular with a smaller public, but they don't care cuz it what they want to do =) Gaga's goal is to release mainstream music, and the same goes for ayu... it doesn't matter how personal they can go with their music, it still is mainstream and pop enough to have massive airplay. The good aspect of being an artist like Tori is that you can really release the most original and personal music u r able to, but you will need to sacrifice a wider audience in order to do so... The most personal a song is, the less a random person is going to relate him/herself to it... That's why Ayu never write a song about a specific where the person is openly mentioned, for example... so, everyone that had a similar situation with someone can relate to the lyrics btw, i'm not saying that one way or another is the best... imo the best is to do the better u can being it more or less mainstream |
Very interesting! I would not have thought to make that comparison! I am a big Tori fan too. I think Tori has more indie appeal and Ayu has more pop appeal, but that's really just a product of marketing. They're both very independent women.
I am still not fully seeing a strong similarity, but the more I think about it, the more it makes sense. |
I really don't prefer to make those kind of comparisons, at least in the sense that "Ayu is the ___ of Japan". I feel like it's kind of disrespectful, because it's trying to interpret someone within the context of your own culture or country, when really they're something different altogether. Tori Amos and Ayumi Hamasaki might have a lot in common in terms of the musical careers, but I still feel that trying to fit one in the context of the other just doesn't compute.
Not saying this is what anybody is trying to do here. I know the whole idea is to raise the hype and our respect for Hamasaki as an artist, but I just thought I'd propose the idea that maybe it's a little counter-productive. Just let Ayumi Hamasaki be Ayumi Hamasaki. |
lol, when reading the similarities description, several artists were flashing through my mind, and at the end i thought "it sounds like Tori Amos, but it couldn't possibly be!" anyway, very interesting comparison.
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Now I can debate with my friends why Ayu is my idol. Your topic is truly Ayu! I love it.
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I also agree that Ayu--no, every artist should just be Ayu, or whoever. But it is fun to compare sometimes and see who the closest counterpart is in the Western world, from the Eastern. Or whatever.
And she's the "empress." ;) |
Two or three years ago, my brother made me watch a music video of Tori Amos. That time I don't know who she is. But the video and the message of her song were kinda striking and it left me "in deep thoughts" for days. Her lyrics, yes were indeed good, very personal and emotional... But somehow, not most people could relate to her lyrics that easily compared to Ayu's.
What more, I don't think she aims to be a pop icon. She is definitely a very great music artist. (In my opinion... Number of sales doesn't really count to measure an artists true skills in making music.) The comparison stated above was something new to me somehow (I mean, I used to read things about the comparison of Ayu and the other prominent western artists... And they just talk about popularity and sales. This one compared inner stuffs... With another artist. :D ) Here, I read something really great. Thanks for sharing. Ayumi Hamasaki is Ayumi Hamasaki, yes I agree. "God sometimes you just don't come true...." |
This is truly a really interesting thread to read.
I felt really... (how to put it?...) pleased with what Deli wrote about "the other artist". I really just heard "Ayu" banging in my head. I have no idea of Tori Amos and how she works. I just know that my friend listends to her and finds great comfort in her songs. When I come to think about it, we both went though some rough times and the one who helped my friend to pic up herself was Tori, and in my case it was Ayu. So in that way I can understand what makes them simillar to each other. The fans devotion to them both is huge and reaches so much love and respect. For the way their fans loves them, and how they love their fans back in return. Then naturally on the outside, they are very diffrent. Tori is Tori. Ayu is Ayu. But as a conclusion. I am very found of artists who works this way, this hard, this devotion to themselves and their fans. I will always give them my deepest respect. |
:laugh Before I read the spoiler I thought you were talking about Gwen Stefani!
I don't know Tori Amos, so I can't contribute my thoughts, but it was interesting to read :) |
I have to say that I agree to say Ayumi is the xxxxx of Japan is very disrespectful. Seriously, reading the spoiler I got a load of names in my mind and so what ?! It's just so random, a lot of women are in Ayu case, some have been lucky, some less and worked different way and still, so what ?!
Seriously, Ayumi worked as much than other, if not more. If Ayu was just a pop star she would wait at her house under a cover that all work come to her, already done, and don't even write a single lyrics nor whatever. I despise pop artist for the most but respect Ayumi because she works hard, compose and write ALL of her lyrics. She is quite honest and true, I hate her Diva image she can have, I laugh at her none fashion sense, I wish she could be less all sparkly but I accept it because she has many good things in her. I don't even see how she could be compared to someone else but I forgot that on earth it looks to be a common thing. Ayumi is Ayumi, nothing more. She is there today by her works, not because she showed her ass in magazines or dunno what. And I respect her for this. I'm not used to take her side, she often hit my nerves and I was used to also despise her many years ago but I think it's quite random to compare her to a specific singer because I could say Mylene Farmer is the same than Ayumi, Mylene got trauma, blabla, she made herself alone, she ... so yeah very random imo. And quite insulting for Ayu. Well that's my own opinion, I don't want to fight >.> |
Well, I don't mind comparing artists in order to make someone that doesn't know them understand how they work or how much impact they had
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Alot of different artists could fit into that description, definitely.... one of the reasons I went with Tori Amos is just cuz she's SO the polar opposite of Ayu in so many ways.... something like "Gwen Stefani" or "Alanis Morissette" or "Madonna" or "Lady Gaga" wouldn't have been nearly as shocking or surprising for people to read at the end, since they're all much more pop-radio friendly.
But yeah, people doing the "so and so" comparison thing really bothers me. It's a fun game to play with your friends, but really, there's no way to do that to someone who's new to jpop. If someone into jpop told me "Ayu is the britney spears of japan," that would have been an instant turn-off because I don't asssociate her with great music, great shows, etc.... personally, I associate her with complete and total dysfunction. She's a crazy person to me, not a successful entertainer. So you really have to be careful making comparisons like that, because you don't know the exact thoughts of whoever you're talking to regarding that comparison. Likewise, some people might be offended by a Tori Amos comparison. They might think "Tori's insane and her lyrics are confusing and no one cares about her at all! She sells like five copies of each album!" or something. You also have to think about what your friend is looking for in a j-artist - are they looking for a certain style of music, a certain type of voice, a certain prominent instrument, a certain style of concerts & videos? Or are they looking for someone who's as popular as their favorite western artists, someone who's made a cultural impact, someone who works a certain way? It's not like Japan says "let's make a japanese version of so-and-so" for every artist they sign; if they did, these comparisons would be easier. But these artists ARE their own people, they're all gonna do things differently. During the shoot for the B'z "It's Showtime" PV, one of the extras was saying "I heard this band is kinda like the Japanese Bon Jovi" and I just felt like smacking something. x_X!! |
When u say that some artist works on a certain way, u are talking about his/her work! The way Ayu performs, the themes of her lyrics, the sound of her music... all of that are part of the way she works... And, if u like the way she works and some artists works like her, there is a chance that u r going to like them too... I don't see any problem here...
Of course, knowing how/to who/ on what context comparing helps a lot... If u hate Britney and Ayu is "the britney of japan", u r going to hate her... this specific comparation made me dislike her without really knowing her at first... But, if u r trying to explain to someone how big is ayu's impact over Japan and compare her to... Madonna. Or how popular she was at the 00s and compare her to Britney, I just can't see how would it be disrespectful... cuz u r only using an easier example for most western people to explain something totally out of their daily context... |
I don’t listen to Tori’s songs very much and Tori is far less well known and popular in my living place. Following is just my some trivial views mainly based on what I’ve seen from Ayumi’s aspect and I would not deny Tori may have the same w/ Ayu as well.
First of all, being the top (I mean “really” top”) would be determined by many many elements besides the artist’s self ability. Take a general example of personal sports arena, why Tiger Woods and Roger Federer is so successful and popular?? They would equally face the stiff competition day by day in their professional circle, since every single player could have the chance to win the tournament with their own skills and techniques. And it comes down to the quality of “self” psychological state/behaviour. Actually it applies to most of the businesses and entertainment business is sure of no exception with this element. Ayu is a very determined and self-conscious person. She knows herself very very well, from inside to outside and we may sometimes wonder if she could split her soul out to look at herself to write those songs and do those performance, just like in “Fly high” PV. We’ve also seen her determination in her early career saying like “I will do my best this time so that I would not regret anymore in the future”, kind of “no turning back”, or “being dead before survive once again” in Chinese slang saying. Secondly, it comes down to “Calculation”, actually I think Ayu could earn a PhD in Pure Maths if she studied lol. Ayu knows exactly what the audience need and what the public want. Some trivial examples like “choosing an outfit (down to color details) to perform is much more difficult than singing a song”, “wearing a “butterfly ring” would not be a bad idea”, image design during the ayu-mi-x II era, something like that u name it. Moreover, in Chinese we have a phrase: “Timing, Place, People” for “to be successful” in doing something. I do believe Ayu’s debut appearance do fit into the “Timing and Place” of this phrase although I don’t live in Japan. If you are talking about “People”, Chinese also have a informal saying if the artist has the “invisible binding force to audience” or not to be successful, in Chinese term called “Yuanfen” (you could visit wiki for detailed explanation of this word). And I think Ayu has a lot “Yuan” with her audience. Of course, “being the top” is difficult but “maintain to be the top” is even more difficult and it is what Ayu is facing in recent years. Anyway, there are thousands of “Tori Amos” in this world surviving and struggling (if saying impolitely), but who cares provided that you do love the artist, just keep on listen to her and support her. BTW, the bottom line is, as Ayu writes recently in her blog (as you remember): “I wouldn’t compare myself with any others, because the one must have “something” that I don’t have, and I do have “something” that others do not have”. As a fan of Ayu, I would keep this belief onwards and it makes me feel more comfortable in future. p.s. apologize for such long writing, if you keep reading to this end, and it seems not exactly fit the topic, anyway... |
Very interesting read! I've never heard of Tori Amos, though, so I'm sorry I can't really say anything about it...
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Thanks for the topic Delirium. I'm gonna investigate more about Tori, and then come back and add my point of view. :) (and may be something interesting to add to the discussion ;) )
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I just want to clarify something that may have been confusing in my first post.
I don't mind making comparisons between artists, and I understand that it's useful to explain to people who nothing about them sometimes. But I think there is a difference between, "Ayumi Hamasaki is the Britney Spears of Japan" and "Ayumi Hamasaki is famous in Japan like Britney Spears is famous in the U.S." There's a difference between equivocating people and comparing something they have in common. I don't mind the latter, but the former I find disrespectful for reasons that I mentioned before, among others. |
Tori Amos... really??
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interesting. :) i think ayu is a lot like....maybe say, beyonce? beyonce seems like a very nice person, just like ayu.
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See? So it's like... Ayu has the lyrical fame and fan affection of a Tori Amos, the lasting cultural impact of a Madonna, the kindness of a Beyonce, the stylishness and artistry of a Lady Gaga, the control and workaholism of a Michael Jackson...
But the Ayu-ish-ness of an Ayumi Hamasaki, right? lol... I am really loving this thread. rian: Yeah XD I could have just as easily made it a cleverly-worded description of Madonna or someone, but for one thing, I don't know Madonna's life story or work well enough, and for another, I really wanted this person to be the LAST person anyone would think of when they thought "western version of ayu." |
FOR certain aspects, Ayu did better than Madonna did.
You know 50million CDs sold are OMG, i cannot really figure it out. But she did it worldwide. She sold her music in every single country of the world and she is famous really everywhere. But if you compare this to the 15millions sold by Ayu just in Asia (ok, many of us are an example that she sells not only in Asia but in most of our countries we cannot go to the CD shop and buy her releases!) it's really a huge amount. Don't you think so? If Madonna could sell just in USA plus more nearest countries, her sales wouldn't have been so high. Ayu in japan and overall in asia with this 15 million sales became a model of popsinger, lyric writing, showgirl, manager, fashion leader, makeup queen, lifestyle, behaviour and i really cannot write everything she became a model of. Sorry Deli, my post isn't that intelligent as the others are but i tried XD |
^ She sold plenty more than 50 million when you count worldwide. :D Not only that, but Madonna has been around wayyy longer. (Not trying to put down Madonna. I respect. *nod* Just sayin'.)
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and Madonna has 200~300million copies sold and still, even if Madge's career is longer and she is famous on more countries, Ayu releases at least 1 album every year and is active on the only contry of the world where singles still have good sales... Madge: 25 albums, 12 dvds/vhs and 87 singles Ayu: 35 albums, 28 dvd/vhs and 47 singles Ayu released a lot more... |
Sales figures again???!!!??? lol
ok, let us put it in this way. We've around 500 mil. to 1.8 bil. people,worldwide, speak english (1st + 2nd lang.) and in Japan they've 130 mil. population, and we could uplift 50% to make it 200 mil., worldwide (it would be already over over estimate). (source: wiki) So Madonna Sales: 300 mil. sold out of 500 mil. (1st lang.) people => (60%) 300 mil. sold out of vs. 1.8 bil. people => (16.67%) while Ayu Sales: 60 mil. sold out of 130 mil. (1st lang) people => 46% 60 mil. sold out of 200 mil. people => (30%) it would be a trivial and rough comparison, just an idea of proportion-wise. So my "very personal" conclusion is Ayu's sales is proportion-wise similar to Madonna's Sales. BTW, I'm used to be a Madonna fan long long time ago as well, though not addicted as what I'm obsessed to Ayu. And I think they're both in win-win situation. Sorry for out of topics discussion. |
That's sort of interesting - I have never heard of that. But does anyone have any pictures that you may have found over the Internet? I'm quite interested to see, because I have never heard about this artist...
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I don't think that Ayumi's aim is only to have mainstream music. I find it so interesting that Alterna was on the Fairyland single. Was ourselves a mainstream song? Mirrorcle world? I think she experiments when she can. But yes, Tori Amos' music is very unique and is a class of its own, thus the very devoted fanbase. Lady Gaga? I though we were talking about established artists who have more than 1 album and have a larger vocabulary than (insert word of choice) stick. |
I also think that Lady Gaga shouldn't be compared. She hasn't even released a proper sophomore album, she's kinda just riding on the tailcoat of The Fame.
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And still, even if Ayu try new stuff, she still has very safe releases, like her summer and winter ones... alterna for example isn't all that mainstream (still, it's not that alternative), but when she was promoting the single, she promoted only fairyland, that is a very safe track |
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ok, alterna was a b-side... but green and sparkle weren't, and a lot of her b-sides that have a video are bolder than the a-sides she is promoting at the time |
^ B-sides PV
INSPIRE vs GAME can go either way, but Inspire was something definitely different for ayu. Fairyland vs Alterna bside Blue Bird vs Beautiful Fighters Talk'n 2 Myself vs Decision By a lot of b-sides you mean just one? Sparkle didn't even have a PV at the time of promotion and oh wait, she didn't even promoted Rule at all, except for for Next level, almost 2 months after Rule/Sparkle release... GREEN is not a winter song, she made it close after MW. She didn't release it for the longest time, thus she focuses on a Winter single- Days -for the Winter. Even thou all she's a mainstream artist, acts such as Bold & Delicious and MW as lead singles shows her experimentation. She's not the most experimenting artist out there, for sure, but she pushes boundaries with Jpop. |
^She sang Rule once on TV and used it as her a-nation opener. This is promotion =)
Sparkle didn't have a pv at the time? Oh, wait, who chose what is going to have a pv and how is it going to be released? Oh... it's Ayu =) Green wasn't a winter song while Days was? Oops, the promoted the safer track again =) - I don't understand why r u replying to me this way, u r being sarcastic and agressive to me as I had bashed Ayu while I didn't... I just said that most of the time she plays it safe what btw is something I like about her considering that being controversial in Japan is not a good marketing as it is on the USA... being controversial in Japan just kills ur career... and Ayu found a way to release controversial or experiemental stuff without shocking general audience and even so, making sure that casual listeners are going to get her message if they like the safer track. |
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