『M 愛すべき人がいて』The story of encounter & separation hidden in the birth of a songstress

[Chibi-Chan]

Originally Posted by njanjayrp

I don’t understand what’s “nuts” about it? Also I think it’s safe to say that whatever she does latest is according to you the worst idea she has ever had

Tabloids earn a lot of cash writing shit about her all the time, why not monetize on your own story/misfortune while everyone else is making money out of it anyways. It’s business and you are taking it a bit too personally imo.

Also being judged by the Japanese society means that to the rest of the world you are regular person with an actual life and not some make-believe shit fantasy of innocence and fake moral. If Utada Hikaru released a book about her relationship with a guy who directed her music videos, also considerably older than her, this would be the best selling book with no judgement attached.

You guys have problems with ayu dating both older and younger people. It’s best for her to join a covent and spend her life not having sex with anyone.

You're being ignorant here. Orbitalaspect already explained why. But I want to add that not only in Japan people would find it embarrassing when you give away too much of your private life in public. For example, I have a friend who is from the US but lives in Germany since a few years. She still has a hard time finding a balance between not telling everyone details about her private life you normally only would tell friends about and not to shut herself off completely. There even seems to be a cultural difference of what is appropriate to tell in public and what not in the US and Germany. People engaging in gossip are seen as superficial and making yourself the center of attention by actively telling people details about your love life is probably what makes people feel ashamed by just listening to you talking.
So is letting someone write a book about gossip of your love life from twenty years ago to make money out of it seen as embarrassing by a lot of Japanese people and that doesn't mean Ayu is just doing what everyone else on this planet would normally do. There are a lot of things which I would criticise about Japanese society, but selling gossip as being seen as embarrassing isn't one of them.

Even though people are hating on Ayu since quite some time now, there were still a lot of those people who saw her as the utahime of the heisei era and who had respect for what she achieved. The reason my friend was asking if Ayu has gone crazy now was because she always was one of those people who saw Ayu as the utahime of the heisei era, who had some love for her old songs, even though she didn't care about what she was releasing lately. Ayu selling her gossip makes people like her see Ayu as someone who herself doesn't respect her legacy.
People are feeling as if Ayu is officially shitting on her own legacy and selling herself cheap. Since Ayu is not just a has been idol but THE Hamasaki Ayumi, people expect her to stand above the gossip and not to sell it herself.
This is hardly a "crazy Japanese standard" normal people can't hold up to.

This also hasn't anything to do with "me taking things personally". There are things which are seen as inappropriate within Japanese society, and that people are actually shocked about Ayu selling her gossip and are still asking if she has gone crazy now, only shows that there are still people who were holding her in high regards when it comes to her being Hamasaki Ayumi and everything that is attached to it. Ayu is actively throwing this away just to make some more money she already has enough of. This is seen as superficial and cheap and makes even people who were pretty indifferent about her see her in a bad light.

Your comment about Utada is pure speculation, but I'm pretty sure Utada actually would never do this, which is one of the reasons people are respecting her more than Ayu.
I never was a big fan of Utada's music, even though I really like some songs here and there. But I always respected her for how she handled her career and private life, especially her mother's suicide, her marriage and the birth of her son.

Don't pretend this is about Ayu dating younger or older guys. This is about power dynamics between teenagers and adults as well as between a superior and a subordinate which turns it from dating into abuse, be it on a sexual or emotional level. If Max was dating Ayu, she did nothing wrong since he was the abuser - if Ayu is dating Pei, she is at fault and this time the abuser.
I never had anything about her dating/marrying Tyson. Tyson was also considerably younger than Ayu, but he was neither a teen, nor her subordinate and apparently also financially well off because of his family background. If Ayu and Max would start dating now, I also wouldn't have anything against it.
But if you really think adults having sex with teenagers is the only way for some adults to not join a covent I don't know what to say anymore.

[Yumsushi]

Originally Posted by Chibi-Chan

Don't pretend this is about Ayu dating younger or older guys. This is about power dynamics between teenagers and adults as well as between a superior and a subordinate which turns it from dating into abuse, be it on a sexual or emotional level. If Max was dating Ayu, she did nothing wrong since he was the abuser - if Ayu is dating Pei, she is at fault and this time the abuser.
I never had anything about her dating/marrying Tyson. Tyson was also considerably younger than Ayu, but he was neither a teen, nor her subordinate and apparently also financially well off because of his family background. If Ayu and Max would start dating now, I also wouldn't have anything against it.
But if you really think adults having sex with teenagers is the only way for some adults to not join a covent I don't know what to say anymore.

Absolutely accurate. Have we becomes so used to seeing actors in their 40s and 50s dating 19 year old models that we no longer see it as what it is? It's gross and the older person in the relationship is definitely preying on the younger's hunger for fame and money.

I don't know if it's Ayumi's team that's grossly incompetent or whether it's just her who doesn't listen to anyone but this is really a desperate move (but not a surprising one) . I don't think this was info anyone was really anxious to learn more about and honestly as chibi-chan said previously it will make the Japanese public question whether Ayumi really earned her success or whether her relationship with Max is what got her to that level of fame.

Personally I think it will backfire and Ayumi will continue to be mocked by Japanese society but who knows. If it really gets made into a tv drama and Ayumi contributes decent music to it, maybe it will be her chance to have the public actually care about her again.

[rikku1994]

Then do not follow her anymore? Look, you are literally following a woman who's songs are constantly about "breaking the rules" or "against the norm", and to be honest, I don't know why you are acting as if you are Ayu herself? Unless Ayu herself says that she is abused then it is incredibly irresponsible to say she is "abused" and that word shouldn't be used lightly.

You are asking a 40 year old woman to conform into a society that she keeps on singing about breaking its rules. An adult dating a teenager may not be a pretty picture, but it exists and it's something that has already happened. Is this a mess? Yes absolutely, but it is nowhere near messy as Party Queen or Maro-era. I don't think Ayu cares at this point. It's fine if we complain and say that this is a bad idea(and y'all are probably right and it WILL backfire), but gosh even to the point of you lowkey accusing her that she will eventually abuse that backup dancer... Smh.

Ayu has always rubbed the Japanese society the wrong way even during her peak and I'm pretty sure she is not going to conform now to their standards. If you can no longer respect her, care so much what other ppl think of her and think that this story (that has been around since the late 90's mind you) would make you forget everything that she has stood for through her lyrics then there are other pop girlies out there who would fit the mold of how a Japanese artist should be. If you're looking for an artist who would follow the rules, then Ayu is not that girl that you should look up to. Self-righteousness is so sickening and y'all are getting having such strong reactions is due to the fact that y'all want to have her maintain a certain image deemed appropriate for the japanese society, is so that y'all can brag about it to your japanese friends without the risk of being made fun of by stanning a has-been. For me it's better to stan a has-been than a never-been. Ppl who admire someone but also ashamed of such admiration can bring so much negativity.

[orbitalaspect]

Originally Posted by rikku1994

Then do not follow her anymore? Look, you are literally following a woman who's songs are constantly about "breaking the rules" or "against the norm", and to be honest, I don't know why you are acting as if you are Ayu herself? Unless Ayu herself says that she is abused then it is incredibly irresponsible to say she is "abused" and that word shouldn't be used lightly.

You are asking a 40 year old woman to conform into a society that she keeps on singing about breaking its rules. An adult dating a teenager may not be a pretty picture, but it exists and it's something that has already happened. Is this a mess? Yes absolutely, but it is nowhere near messy as Party Queen or Maro-era. I don't think Ayu cares at this point. It's fine if we complain and say that this is a bad idea(and y'all are probably right and it WILL backfire), but gosh even to the point of you lowkey accusing her that she will eventually abuse that backup dancer... Smh.

Ayu has always rubbed the Japanese society the wrong way even during her peak and I'm pretty sure she is not going to conform now to their standards. If you can no longer respect her, care so much what other ppl think of her and think that this story (that has been around since the late 90's mind you) would make you forget everything that she has stood for through her lyrics then there are other pop girlies out there who would fit the mold of how a Japanese artist should be. If you're looking for an artist who would follow the rules, then Ayu is not that girl that you should look up to. Self-righteousness is so sickening.

Except she doesn't sing about breaking the rules or going against the norm all that often. The vast majority of her songs are about loneliness and hope. You must be referring to Koda, who by the way, doesn't do crazy stuff like this.

[rikku1994]

Originally Posted by orbitalaspect

Except she doesn't sing about breaking the rules or going against the norm all that often. The vast majority of her songs are about loneliness and hope. You must be referring to Koda, who by the way, doesn't do crazy stuff like this.

I would have agreed but I still can't forget that amniotic fluid comment lmao

[primavera♥]

Originally Posted by Chibi-Chan

You're being ignorant here. Orbitalaspect already explained why. But I want to add that not only in Japan people would find it embarrassing when you give away too much of your private life in public. For example, I have a friend who is from the US but lives in Germany since a few years. She still has a hard time finding a balance between not telling everyone details about her private life you normally only would tell friends about and not to shut herself off completely. There even seems to be a cultural difference of what is appropriate to tell in public and what not in the US and Germany. People engaging in gossip are seen as superficial and making yourself the center of attention by actively telling people details about your love life is probably what makes people feel ashamed by just listening to you talking.
So is letting someone write a book about gossip of your love life from twenty years ago to make money out of it seen as embarrassing by a lot of Japanese people and that doesn't mean Ayu is just doing what everyone else on this planet would normally do. There are a lot of things which I would criticise about Japanese society, but selling gossip as being seen as embarrassing isn't one of them.

Even though people are hating on Ayu since quite some time now, there were still a lot of those people who saw her as the utahime of the heisei era and who had respect for what she achieved. The reason my friend was asking if Ayu has gone crazy now was because she always was one of those people who saw Ayu as the utahime of the heisei era, who had some love for her old songs, even though she didn't care about what she was releasing lately. Ayu selling her gossip makes people like her see Ayu as someone who herself doesn't respect her legacy.
People are feeling as if Ayu is officially shitting on her own legacy and selling herself cheap. Since Ayu is not just a has been idol but THE Hamasaki Ayumi, people expect her to stand above the gossip and not to sell it herself.
This is hardly a "crazy Japanese standard" normal people can't hold up to.

This also hasn't anything to do with "me taking things personally". There are things which are seen as inappropriate within Japanese society, and that people are actually shocked about Ayu selling her gossip and are still asking if she has gone crazy now, only shows that there are still people who were holding her in high regards when it comes to her being Hamasaki Ayumi and everything that is attached to it. Ayu is actively throwing this away just to make some more money she already has enough of. This is seen as superficial and cheap and makes even people who were pretty indifferent about her see her in a bad light.

Your comment about Utada is pure speculation, but I'm pretty sure Utada actually would never do this, which is one of the reasons people are respecting her more than Ayu.
I never was a big fan of Utada's music, even though I really like some songs here and there. But I always respected her for how she handled her career and private life, especially her mother's suicide, her marriage and the birth of her son.

Don't pretend this is about Ayu dating younger or older guys. This is about power dynamics between teenagers and adults as well as between a superior and a subordinate which turns it from dating into abuse, be it on a sexual or emotional level. If Max was dating Ayu, she did nothing wrong since he was the abuser - if Ayu is dating Pei, she is at fault and this time the abuser.
I never had anything about her dating/marrying Tyson. Tyson was also considerably younger than Ayu, but he was neither a teen, nor her subordinate and apparently also financially well off because of his family background. If Ayu and Max would start dating now, I also wouldn't have anything against it.
But if you really think adults having sex with teenagers is the only way for some adults to not join a covent I don't know what to say anymore.

These takes about cultural and societal norms from you and orbitalaspect are not good ones, especially for labeling other points as ignorant...

People who discuss their private life are seen as superficial, lacking self-respect and cause discomfort and embarrassment, but why? What reasons do you have for feeling that way or labeling someone as such besides it just being what your society tells you to feel?

Are they actually superficial? Do they really not respect themselves? How do you qualify for those traits? Why does it make you uncomfortable? We're socialized to feel a certain way and maintain certain values and to me, they are just that. I'd rather check them.

And I will also never agree that I need to respect the way someone views and treats others in their society because of their "culture." I think empathy, sensitivity, and an understanding of the nuance of culture are important, but that doesnt mean I should respect it.

And usually when people say that, they still are only taking about the cultural norms they actually agree with to some extent or that don't affect them lol. I can't.

If people lose respect for ayumi, it's a personal problem, and life will move on. She has done many things that go against the grain, and her life as well continues to move on. She is a has been, a legend, and a human, regardless of what people want her to be.

I dont know how she feels in her own culture aside from things she has discussed over time. I don't know how much she wants to conform to something or not to maintain an image. I dont know if she just doesnt care about certain perspectives in society

Regardless, just because the expectations people have for her are ingrained in society, it doesnt mean they are righteous.

I understanding talking about it objectively, such as "Japanese people feel this way about her because x,y,z," and I think that's some of what you both are trying to say. but I think many ayu fans feel that if someone else finds something embarrassing or "wrong", then that objectively makes it embarrassing or "wrong."