『M 愛すべき人がいて』The story of encounter & separation hidden in the birth of a songstress

[mizuki-7]

It's her problem if she wants to fight good thinking! At this point i think she just does not care ... it's part of her story she has the right to share it. In the end it seems this book does not leave anyone indifferent wether it's good or bad. To me it does not affect her talent now we know the reasons that led her to write her beautiful lyrics...

[Chibi-Chan]

Originally Posted by njanjayrp

I don’t understand what’s “nuts” about it? Also I think it’s safe to say that whatever she does latest is according to you the worst idea she has ever had

Tabloids earn a lot of cash writing shit about her all the time, why not monetize on your own story/misfortune while everyone else is making money out of it anyways. It’s business and you are taking it a bit too personally imo.

Also being judged by the Japanese society means that to the rest of the world you are regular person with an actual life and not some make-believe shit fantasy of innocence and fake moral. If Utada Hikaru released a book about her relationship with a guy who directed her music videos, also considerably older than her, this would be the best selling book with no judgement attached.

You guys have problems with ayu dating both older and younger people. It’s best for her to join a covent and spend her life not having sex with anyone.

You're being ignorant here. Orbitalaspect already explained why. But I want to add that not only in Japan people would find it embarrassing when you give away too much of your private life in public. For example, I have a friend who is from the US but lives in Germany since a few years. She still has a hard time finding a balance between not telling everyone details about her private life you normally only would tell friends about and not to shut herself off completely. There even seems to be a cultural difference of what is appropriate to tell in public and what not in the US and Germany. People engaging in gossip are seen as superficial and making yourself the center of attention by actively telling people details about your love life is probably what makes people feel ashamed by just listening to you talking.
So is letting someone write a book about gossip of your love life from twenty years ago to make money out of it seen as embarrassing by a lot of Japanese people and that doesn't mean Ayu is just doing what everyone else on this planet would normally do. There are a lot of things which I would criticise about Japanese society, but selling gossip as being seen as embarrassing isn't one of them.

Even though people are hating on Ayu since quite some time now, there were still a lot of those people who saw her as the utahime of the heisei era and who had respect for what she achieved. The reason my friend was asking if Ayu has gone crazy now was because she always was one of those people who saw Ayu as the utahime of the heisei era, who had some love for her old songs, even though she didn't care about what she was releasing lately. Ayu selling her gossip makes people like her see Ayu as someone who herself doesn't respect her legacy.
People are feeling as if Ayu is officially shitting on her own legacy and selling herself cheap. Since Ayu is not just a has been idol but THE Hamasaki Ayumi, people expect her to stand above the gossip and not to sell it herself.
This is hardly a "crazy Japanese standard" normal people can't hold up to.

This also hasn't anything to do with "me taking things personally". There are things which are seen as inappropriate within Japanese society, and that people are actually shocked about Ayu selling her gossip and are still asking if she has gone crazy now, only shows that there are still people who were holding her in high regards when it comes to her being Hamasaki Ayumi and everything that is attached to it. Ayu is actively throwing this away just to make some more money she already has enough of. This is seen as superficial and cheap and makes even people who were pretty indifferent about her see her in a bad light.

Your comment about Utada is pure speculation, but I'm pretty sure Utada actually would never do this, which is one of the reasons people are respecting her more than Ayu.
I never was a big fan of Utada's music, even though I really like some songs here and there. But I always respected her for how she handled her career and private life, especially her mother's suicide, her marriage and the birth of her son.

Don't pretend this is about Ayu dating younger or older guys. This is about power dynamics between teenagers and adults as well as between a superior and a subordinate which turns it from dating into abuse, be it on a sexual or emotional level. If Max was dating Ayu, she did nothing wrong since he was the abuser - if Ayu is dating Pei, she is at fault and this time the abuser.
I never had anything about her dating/marrying Tyson. Tyson was also considerably younger than Ayu, but he was neither a teen, nor her subordinate and apparently also financially well off because of his family background. If Ayu and Max would start dating now, I also wouldn't have anything against it.
But if you really think adults having sex with teenagers is the only way for some adults to not join a covent I don't know what to say anymore.

[Yumsushi]

Originally Posted by Chibi-Chan

Don't pretend this is about Ayu dating younger or older guys. This is about power dynamics between teenagers and adults as well as between a superior and a subordinate which turns it from dating into abuse, be it on a sexual or emotional level. If Max was dating Ayu, she did nothing wrong since he was the abuser - if Ayu is dating Pei, she is at fault and this time the abuser.
I never had anything about her dating/marrying Tyson. Tyson was also considerably younger than Ayu, but he was neither a teen, nor her subordinate and apparently also financially well off because of his family background. If Ayu and Max would start dating now, I also wouldn't have anything against it.
But if you really think adults having sex with teenagers is the only way for some adults to not join a covent I don't know what to say anymore.

Absolutely accurate. Have we becomes so used to seeing actors in their 40s and 50s dating 19 year old models that we no longer see it as what it is? It's gross and the older person in the relationship is definitely preying on the younger's hunger for fame and money.

I don't know if it's Ayumi's team that's grossly incompetent or whether it's just her who doesn't listen to anyone but this is really a desperate move (but not a surprising one) . I don't think this was info anyone was really anxious to learn more about and honestly as chibi-chan said previously it will make the Japanese public question whether Ayumi really earned her success or whether her relationship with Max is what got her to that level of fame.

Personally I think it will backfire and Ayumi will continue to be mocked by Japanese society but who knows. If it really gets made into a tv drama and Ayumi contributes decent music to it, maybe it will be her chance to have the public actually care about her again.

[orbitalaspect]

Originally Posted by Andrenekoi

^Shameful and ignorant projecting your perception of a culture on her in order to belittle her, someone who is actually a part of that culture and way more aware of its complexities, so you can complain she doesn't fit an idealized version of how you believe she should be or how she should act as a japanese person.
She herself chose her lifestyle as a actual Japonese woman and how to approach her own issues with her own culture the way she does and most likely is well aware of its consequences.
This also doesn't happen only in Japan as every culture has its own share of hypocrital expectations over and will suffer some level of moral judgement once they go against it.

The spin, the spin. Like Chibi and I have already pointed out, our perception of Ayu isn't what we're talking about. It doesn't matter what we think in terms of what most Japanese think. If this hasn't struck you upside the head hard enough yet, you need to go watch the extremely confusing reactions Japanese have for Western ideas of cultural appropriation, equality, and self-expression.

So, feel free to have your take on this, no matter how wrong it is rhetorically, but given your own argument that Ayu knows these complexities far better, why in the hell would she think this is a good idea? The same woman who dropped a photographer for his semi-nude portraits of her staff. The same woman who hid the deterioration of her hearing to avoid gossip. Now involved in a book that's pure scandal.

I don't know. You and I rarely agree on anything apart from Cher and Streisand, but this reads like a reach from you among those disagreements.

Someone else pointed out that Ayu is going to do what she wants. That's fair. What few others seem to understand (unless it benefits their actions) is that those actions have consequences, and in Japan, doing something like this reflects poorly on the people involved. Ayu has gone from Heisei Queen to Party Queen to Gossip Queen. And I don't think it's fair that so many people know her as much for her behavior as they do for her music. It's pretty disappointing that Kuu can bring up expiring amniotic fluid and spend 20 years wearing lingerie on stage, and people think she's an icon, but Ayu can't get her personal live together enough to stop feeding the tabloid trolls every year.

[rikku1994]

Then do not follow her anymore? Look, you are literally following a woman who's songs are constantly about "breaking the rules" or "against the norm", and to be honest, I don't know why you are acting as if you are Ayu herself? Unless Ayu herself says that she is abused then it is incredibly irresponsible to say she is "abused" and that word shouldn't be used lightly.

You are asking a 40 year old woman to conform into a society that she keeps on singing about breaking its rules. An adult dating a teenager may not be a pretty picture, but it exists and it's something that has already happened. Is this a mess? Yes absolutely, but it is nowhere near messy as Party Queen or Maro-era. I don't think Ayu cares at this point. It's fine if we complain and say that this is a bad idea(and y'all are probably right and it WILL backfire), but gosh even to the point of you lowkey accusing her that she will eventually abuse that backup dancer... Smh.

Ayu has always rubbed the Japanese society the wrong way even during her peak and I'm pretty sure she is not going to conform now to their standards. If you can no longer respect her, care so much what other ppl think of her and think that this story (that has been around since the late 90's mind you) would make you forget everything that she has stood for through her lyrics then there are other pop girlies out there who would fit the mold of how a Japanese artist should be. If you're looking for an artist who would follow the rules, then Ayu is not that girl that you should look up to. Self-righteousness is so sickening and y'all are getting having such strong reactions is due to the fact that y'all want to have her maintain a certain image deemed appropriate for the japanese society, is so that y'all can brag about it to your japanese friends without the risk of being made fun of by stanning a has-been. For me it's better to stan a has-been than a never-been. Ppl who admire someone but also ashamed of such admiration can bring so much negativity.

[primavera♥]

Originally Posted by Chibi-Chan

You're being ignorant here. Orbitalaspect already explained why. But I want to add that not only in Japan people would find it embarrassing when you give away too much of your private life in public. For example, I have a friend who is from the US but lives in Germany since a few years. She still has a hard time finding a balance between not telling everyone details about her private life you normally only would tell friends about and not to shut herself off completely. There even seems to be a cultural difference of what is appropriate to tell in public and what not in the US and Germany. People engaging in gossip are seen as superficial and making yourself the center of attention by actively telling people details about your love life is probably what makes people feel ashamed by just listening to you talking.
So is letting someone write a book about gossip of your love life from twenty years ago to make money out of it seen as embarrassing by a lot of Japanese people and that doesn't mean Ayu is just doing what everyone else on this planet would normally do. There are a lot of things which I would criticise about Japanese society, but selling gossip as being seen as embarrassing isn't one of them.

Even though people are hating on Ayu since quite some time now, there were still a lot of those people who saw her as the utahime of the heisei era and who had respect for what she achieved. The reason my friend was asking if Ayu has gone crazy now was because she always was one of those people who saw Ayu as the utahime of the heisei era, who had some love for her old songs, even though she didn't care about what she was releasing lately. Ayu selling her gossip makes people like her see Ayu as someone who herself doesn't respect her legacy.
People are feeling as if Ayu is officially shitting on her own legacy and selling herself cheap. Since Ayu is not just a has been idol but THE Hamasaki Ayumi, people expect her to stand above the gossip and not to sell it herself.
This is hardly a "crazy Japanese standard" normal people can't hold up to.

This also hasn't anything to do with "me taking things personally". There are things which are seen as inappropriate within Japanese society, and that people are actually shocked about Ayu selling her gossip and are still asking if she has gone crazy now, only shows that there are still people who were holding her in high regards when it comes to her being Hamasaki Ayumi and everything that is attached to it. Ayu is actively throwing this away just to make some more money she already has enough of. This is seen as superficial and cheap and makes even people who were pretty indifferent about her see her in a bad light.

Your comment about Utada is pure speculation, but I'm pretty sure Utada actually would never do this, which is one of the reasons people are respecting her more than Ayu.
I never was a big fan of Utada's music, even though I really like some songs here and there. But I always respected her for how she handled her career and private life, especially her mother's suicide, her marriage and the birth of her son.

Don't pretend this is about Ayu dating younger or older guys. This is about power dynamics between teenagers and adults as well as between a superior and a subordinate which turns it from dating into abuse, be it on a sexual or emotional level. If Max was dating Ayu, she did nothing wrong since he was the abuser - if Ayu is dating Pei, she is at fault and this time the abuser.
I never had anything about her dating/marrying Tyson. Tyson was also considerably younger than Ayu, but he was neither a teen, nor her subordinate and apparently also financially well off because of his family background. If Ayu and Max would start dating now, I also wouldn't have anything against it.
But if you really think adults having sex with teenagers is the only way for some adults to not join a covent I don't know what to say anymore.

These takes about cultural and societal norms from you and orbitalaspect are not good ones, especially for labeling other points as ignorant...

People who discuss their private life are seen as superficial, lacking self-respect and cause discomfort and embarrassment, but why? What reasons do you have for feeling that way or labeling someone as such besides it just being what your society tells you to feel?

Are they actually superficial? Do they really not respect themselves? How do you qualify for those traits? Why does it make you uncomfortable? We're socialized to feel a certain way and maintain certain values and to me, they are just that. I'd rather check them.

And I will also never agree that I need to respect the way someone views and treats others in their society because of their "culture." I think empathy, sensitivity, and an understanding of the nuance of culture are important, but that doesnt mean I should respect it.

And usually when people say that, they still are only taking about the cultural norms they actually agree with to some extent or that don't affect them lol. I can't.

If people lose respect for ayumi, it's a personal problem, and life will move on. She has done many things that go against the grain, and her life as well continues to move on. She is a has been, a legend, and a human, regardless of what people want her to be.

I dont know how she feels in her own culture aside from things she has discussed over time. I don't know how much she wants to conform to something or not to maintain an image. I dont know if she just doesnt care about certain perspectives in society

Regardless, just because the expectations people have for her are ingrained in society, it doesnt mean they are righteous.

I understanding talking about it objectively, such as "Japanese people feel this way about her because x,y,z," and I think that's some of what you both are trying to say. but I think many ayu fans feel that if someone else finds something embarrassing or "wrong", then that objectively makes it embarrassing or "wrong."

[orbitalaspect]

Originally Posted by rikku1994

Then do not follow her anymore? Look, you are literally following a woman who's songs are constantly about "breaking the rules" or "against the norm", and to be honest, I don't know why you are acting as if you are Ayu herself? Unless Ayu herself says that she is abused then it is incredibly irresponsible to say she is "abused" and that word shouldn't be used lightly.

You are asking a 40 year old woman to conform into a society that she keeps on singing about breaking its rules. An adult dating a teenager may not be a pretty picture, but it exists and it's something that has already happened. Is this a mess? Yes absolutely, but it is nowhere near messy as Party Queen or Maro-era. I don't think Ayu cares at this point. It's fine if we complain and say that this is a bad idea(and y'all are probably right and it WILL backfire), but gosh even to the point of you lowkey accusing her that she will eventually abuse that backup dancer... Smh.

Ayu has always rubbed the Japanese society the wrong way even during her peak and I'm pretty sure she is not going to conform now to their standards. If you can no longer respect her, care so much what other ppl think of her and think that this story (that has been around since the late 90's mind you) would make you forget everything that she has stood for through her lyrics then there are other pop girlies out there who would fit the mold of how a Japanese artist should be. If you're looking for an artist who would follow the rules, then Ayu is not that girl that you should look up to. Self-righteousness is so sickening.

Except she doesn't sing about breaking the rules or going against the norm all that often. The vast majority of her songs are about loneliness and hope. You must be referring to Koda, who by the way, doesn't do crazy stuff like this.

[~angel*ayumi~]

mhhh you say japanese society is different and gossip about personal life is a no-go, but still the book is no 1 at amazon japan.
I have the feeling the japanese has a very big double standart...

[SupeRic]

Reading some of those comments really triggers headache to me.
Just don‘t interpret things into events you haven‘t been there in person...

[rikku1994]

Originally Posted by orbitalaspect

Except she doesn't sing about breaking the rules or going against the norm all that often. The vast majority of her songs are about loneliness and hope. You must be referring to Koda, who by the way, doesn't do crazy stuff like this.

I would have agreed but I still can't forget that amniotic fluid comment lmao

[Andrenekoi]

@orbitalaspect What Japanese people will or will not think about Ayu actions is both none of our business and a little too much for us to try to pintpoint in a country with 126,8M people. Neither will she be loved by all, or most, or even half of those people, neither should she try to be. Utada's First Love is the best selling album in that market and it wasn't sold to 10% of that population.

Ayu as a public figure was always controversial to some extent, from the topless album cover back in the end of the 90's, to pretty much every single time she was way too much for what they expect from an ideal woman, something she is doing one way or another since the begining of her career. Besides those who jumped on the train when she was big, and left once the was past her prime, her career was never really designed to appeal to someone with much of an idealized image of what their idol should be.

In that sense she has lived and acted more as an artist, testing the bounderies of her own culture, and had been far braver in doing that than her peers.

Her iconic status is safe. Seiko Matsuuda was VERY scandalous for most of her career and she still is an icon. And it's just natural younger generations to know her better for her gossip than for her music, as she didn't released a big hit in a while.

We can say Utada, for example, played her cards better in a market point of view. What also means she isn't singing about several stuff she clearly wanted to, considering her USA releases. We can say Namie also played her cards better, but Namie admitelly was following trends as a way to keep the public coming back until her retirement date arrived.

Ayu wants to be free to express what she wants on the way she wants. Freedom is even a huge theme in her body of work, and on her case, being free will also be scandalous a she herself deviates from the norm of her own culture and already did before she was famous.

Calling her culturally unaware, when she released a full album and tour about this subject not too long ago, or even questioning her mental healthy (WTF?) is really fucked up.

I don't like to mention Chibi-Chan on my posts because I even blocked her. But someone who prides herself on being a feminist questioning a woman's mental health because she is giving her middle finger to how patriarchy wants her to act on her own society totally rubs me the wrong way.

Edit:
primavera♥ is like the best person to ever exist on this forum and God bless, we need her xD

Also, Ayu doesn't frequently sings about breaking the rules, true. She usually just go there and break them.

[njanjayrp]

I am a 100% with primavera and andrenekoi.

I would just like to add that respecting the social norms and conventions 100% would probably still have us stuck in the middle ages. Women wouldn’t have any rights, we would have jails filled with LGBT people.

As it was already said ayu was always a rebel, while she was in, that was acceptable however Japan has regressed in many ways it seems and now you are only acceptable if you are the same as everyone else.

Also guys WOW at those walls of text! We are all busy people here xD

I will go back to being ignorant now

[Katsuyuki012]

Ayu never was a 'typical Japanese' and she has been doing her thing for years now. She obviously doesn't care about following the rules of Japanese culture/society, and just because Japan's culture 'is that way' doesn't mean it's perfect either (as with any country). It's her career and she should be allowed to do whatever she wants to, even if it's against the 'norm' or what some of us think (something I had to learn myself with other artists). We either accept it or we don't. I get that some don't like what's she's doing but that doesn't mean that she should have to conform to anyone or anything.

I, for one, had my disagreement about Namie and (no matter how irrational it might have been to many people) I just stopped following her. Maybe that would be good for some of you if ayu really disappointed you that much / if you lost respect for her.

[voltron]

Man, I've been reading this thread and boy is it exhausting.

I question the motives in doing things in this medium, and think there's obviously more here than any of us know. It seems a bit messy, but I don't have any major problems with it. To be honest, I'd really prefer another documentary interview with her, or a memoir - but it is what it is.

With regards to any negative feedback, or her going against her cultural norms, I'm not going to write out the same thing I've written in many threads before, so I'll just paste it here.

Ayu was the voice of the "lost generation" in Japan. People always connected to her on this really personal level for her lyrics, her attitude, etc. During her prime, Ayu was a "bad Japanese woman" because she broke out of the mold in so many ways, and that was exactly what the general public was feeling and wanting during that time. Now, those people have all grown and settled into the more "expected" roles they play in life, and the current younger generation in Japan is really much more insular than the previous. Now Ayu's actions and behaviors as a "bad Japanese woman" are something to insult her for, it's not something they want to see in a Japanese popstar. I also contribute this to Namie's success - despite the bumpy rode she faced earlier in her career, but scrubbing her private personality from things (like, literally having her tattoos removed), she became this aspirational image of a cute, beautiful, talented, hard-working Japanese woman. And all of those things are certainly true, but it's a very specific image that she's portraying, and exactly what the general public want.

[ExodusUK]

Oh gosh, each to their own!

[DA1SUK1DAY01691]

I think the issue the Japanese public has is, "why this, and why now?"

As I've mentioned before, the television and music landscape changed, mostly via social media and YouTube: blogs helped disseminate personal thoughts, but the best way to reach out to fans pre-2010 was going on TV. Considering Ayu doesn't make many appearances anymore and the fact that she hasn't released a critically-acclaimed album since possibly Love Songs or Love Again (which were both basically compilation albums of her previous EPs) back in 2013 means her fandom (including us abroad ones) dwindled over the years.

Japanese people still love gossip as much as the next person: why else are there still shufukai (for the housewives and retired ladies) and tabloid publications like Shuukan bunshun and FRIDAY still create impact when a story breaks? Twitter being the second most used SNS platform (after LINE) means they're still interested in expressing their opinion (or reading others').

The real issue was the format choice: why "fiction based on fact," and not a documentary or interview? Granted her relationship with Matsuura must have been tough to talk about if she felt so deeply about it, but from most of the Japanese reactions I've seen, the issues were it was too shallow to call it a "tell-all book" (i.e. the advertising wasn't right) and they really just didn't want to know more about her relationship with Matsuura. Some fans still appreciated knowing the background behind some of the songs/performances, some are defending her works and want people to separate what they may think of her as a person versus what she produced, and some wonder why they were fans in the first place after reading it, but "disgusted" is more of an extreme reaction (vs. an average one).

The other major problem was the fact the story come from her. For Ayu herself to be involved in it was what made it seem "desperate" and "cringey," but had it been an unauthorized work or story, then the reactions would have been more sympathetic.

Personally, I don't see anything inherently wrong in it: sure it's tacky and apparently the content is lacking, but it's already happened at this point. She can't recall the books, and make people forget what they read. The comparisons between her generation mates Utada and Amuro nor her publicized marriages/divorces and lack of children definitely don't help her case, but I imagine the difficulty in trying to create new music is hard to overcome when she's almost completely deaf.

In the same way the Hello! Project girls still respect Tsunku and want to work with him despite his reduced role, I'm sure there are up-and-coming artists (within Avex and their subsidiaries) who would love for Ayu to help them write their lyrics—that would probably be a more productive use of her time if she was pointed in that direction, instead of continuously trying to sell herself.

[tokyoxjapanxfan]

It did exactly what it was meant to do.
Get her in the news, get people talking.
And it’ll continue when the drama comes out too.

If they tap young, popular actors and actresses, it would be really interesting to see.

[Yagami Raito]

There is a lot of different opinions about this release and I understand it but the main goal was to bring her on the news. Is it the right way to do so? Idk but the result is here.
During one week she was on the news and a complete ～all singles～ is again on the top of the Recochoku charts... lol

And btw, even "Mentalist Daigo" (famous psychologist/scientist reading and analyzing people's mind etc...) made a video about it:



Let me summarize what he's saying.
" - Many people may think "why now?" yet I think that this may have been the right moment for her to do that because she felt that her 20th anniversary was a turning point and because Matsuura is her producer again.
For a lot of people, the only way to get rid of their feelings is to create something and/or to put those into words. It's even more effective when you put those into a narration because you can control the flow of it.
Moreover she had to speak a lot about herself to the writer, alone and with Matsuura. That is something that may be compared to a therapy.
Psychologically speaking, I thing that she may have still had some feelings for him until finishing this book. I am sure that now she feel better and more relieved than before. "

He speaks also about how and why people that become famous/wealthy fail to be happy, etc...


By the way, a lot users here and the Japanese public is wondering what songs are about and/or at some point related Matsuura and if every single songs she wrote is about him yet there is an official compilation of those songs released on AWA:

Spoiler:

- aeternal
- Immigrant Song (Led Zeppelin)
- A song for xx
- poker face
- YOU
- Trust
- For My Dear...
- Depend on you
- WHATEVER
- TO BE
- Boys & Girls
- appears
- Vogue
- Far away
- SEASONS
- M


Do not ask me why there is a Led Zepplin song in this list. You may found some hints in the lyrics
I am a bit surprised about A song for xx though... lol

[Andrenekoi]

^That playlist is avaliable on Spotfy too.

I just don't know if those are the songs written about him, or the songs mentioned on the book being them about him or not.

[freedreamer]

i hope aeternal is just there because #currenpromo LOL