2021: Reflecting on Ayu's career

[AyuCanada]

MOD EDIT:

Originally Posted by koumori

This is a moved discussion from the A BALLADS 2 thread. Moving it isn't to stop the chat, it's more so it doesn't bury any news that might pop up about AB2 in the next few weeks and giving it a chance to continue.

I think it's really interesting that we can now look back at a whole decade of Ayu's work from 2010 onwards and pinpoint definitive moments that affected her image heavily, and all that is entangled with that going forward, and how it may still be affecting her image and work today. I'd personally love to see more perspectives from other ayu fans on this.

As a note - while it has been said that Ayumi Hamasaki is the product, Ayu is a person, and the 2010s is where that line blurred ever more. Please keep in mind that she is a human being who lived out her successes and failures (whatever you perceive them to be) in public, and ultimately is just another person who is trying to figure out their life. It is absolutely fair to critique her professional decisions and work but I hope we can keep to the level of fairness we have seen in the posts so far in regards to respecting her as an individual.

ORIGINAL POST:

I think we should just accept the fact that Utada is still largely popular and ayu isn't. I meet a lot of Japanese in Vancouver and the fact are, the average modern Japanese people will say that they like Utada Hikaru but Ayu is a bit of a shameful thing to like.

My thoughts are, Utada style has always been a bit bland, safe and more accessible. Ayu went on a more controversial path, especially with her LGBT advocacy (a bit like Lady Gaga did, although, we all know that most Japanese are more conservative and introspected about their image). People associate her a lot with LGBT and the Gyaru trend. My roomate (from osaka) explained me that today, the perception of the stereotyped Ayu fans are party people and trouble makers. On the other hand, being a fan of Utada doesn't come with specific labels.

[Andrenekoi]

Originally Posted by AyuCanada

I think we should just accept the fact that Utada is still largely popular and ayu isn't. I meet a lot of Japanese in Vancouver and the fact are, the average modern Japanese people will say that they like Utada Hikaru but Ayu is a bit of a shameful thing to like.

My thoughts are, Utada style has always been a bit bland, safe and more accessible. Ayu went on a more controversial path, especially with her LGBT advocacy (a bit like Lady Gaga did, although, we all know that most Japanese are more conservative and introspected about their image). People associate her a lot with LGBT and the Gyaru trend. My roomate (from osaka) explained me that today, the perception of the stereotyped Ayu fans are party people and trouble makers. On the other hand, being a fan of Utada doesn't come with specific labels.

This is actually pretty cool tbh xD

[URANUS]

Originally Posted by AyuCanada

I think we should just accept the fact that Utada is still largely popular and ayu isn't. I meet a lot of Japanese in Vancouver and the fact are, the average modern Japanese people will say that they like Utada Hikaru but Ayu is a bit of a shameful thing to like.

My thoughts are, Utada style has always been a bit bland, safe and more accessible. Ayu went on a more controversial path, especially with her LGBT advocacy (a bit like Lady Gaga did, although, we all know that most Japanese are more conservative and introspected about their image). People associate her a lot with LGBT and the Gyaru trend. My roomate (from osaka) explained me that today, the perception of the stereotyped Ayu fans are party people and trouble makers. On the other hand, being a fan of Utada doesn't come with specific labels.

Hikki has been a big LGBT advocate as well, on several occasions.

-Tweeted that she is not straight.

-she supported gay marriage at a concert. She threw balls to the fans that said "legalize gay marriage" over 10 years ago.

-she went on tv to explain that one of her songs "Tomodachi" is sung from the perspective of a gay person

- her famous bear is openly gay.

- her "gay" music video with Shina Ringo.

[AyuCanada]

Originally Posted by URANUS

Hikki has been a big LGBT advocate as well, on several occasions.

-Tweeted that she is not straight.

-she supported gay marriage at a concert. She threw balls to the fans that said "legalize gay marriage" over 10 years ago.

-she went on tv to explain that one of her songs "Tomodachi" is sung from the perspective of a gay person

- her famous bear is openly gay.

- her "gay" music video with Shina Ringo.

I didn't know that, I guess she just know how to do things right. I love ayu a lot, but she took weird decisions the past decade.

[KittyKathy]

Ayumi's popularity has dropped because her songs aren't so good anymore and her voice is bad(for very well known reasons). She hasn’t had a single hit in the past 10 years. People don't like her doing plastic surgery, gaining weight and also some decisions from private life.

[bennyshero]

I think the major reason that the general public don't like her anymore is because of her voice. People on this site including me are obsessed with her, and are therefore more forgiving of her vocal issues. But for an ordinary person, her vocal after 2012 is far from enjoyable, and is even less so after 2015.

She and her fans may argue that she sounds bad because she loves singing too much, because she dedicates her all to the stage. But at the same time, the general public will doubt: if you really love singing, why would you allow yourself to sound like that? If you love stage performance, why do you keep recycling old props? This gap of understanding between both sides keeps widening, and both sides refuse to understand the other.

Speaking of genuineness, I do believe the emotional genuineness of her songs, but her words do not always coincide with her deeds. For example, in Mad World, she criticizes how people destroy the environment. But at the same time, she flaunts her extravagant lifestyle which can hardly be deemed environmental friendly. This kind of ambivalence, together with the ambivalence about her love for her career, can be really confusing to the general public who eventually lose faith in her sincerity. Her sincerity, however, is what made her stand out in the first place.

[!Lawi!]

I don't think it's fair to say she mis-represents the gay community. The first point -and probably most important for me- is the one that was just made above: not every gay is flamboyant or covered in leather harnesses but not accepting that side of the community is a form of homophobia for me.

But also, she has ACTUALLY done so much for the community I can't believe people are stuck with Lady Dynamite and WARNING.

Wasn't hbya the first on-screen gay kiss in a Japanese MV ever? She gave a free concert during Tokyo Pride. She voiced her support on social media. She hired an openly trans dancer back in her troupe. The only think the lady hasn't done is date a girl at this point!

I never thought her ties to the gay community was the reason Japan had lost interest in her to be honest, but if it is, good on her!

[Chibi-Chan]

No one was referring to Lady Dynamite, WARNING or gay men being flamboyant. My initial comment was about how she often (not always) made Timmy look like a freak by making him wearing diapers for example. I don't see how wearing diapers while being half naked has anything to do with being an effeminate gay man. Not to mention that I'm not a fan of in your face masculine men and don't expect anyone to act like heterosexual men (whatever that means anyway).
There were some tabloids as well as trashy news on the internet showing Timmy in some of his more ridiculous outfits (which he himself stated he didn't really like wearing). Therefore, that is what the general public will remember about Ayu "promoting" gay rights, they probably don't even know she had a a show at Tokyo Pride, let alone that anyone watched the PV of WARNING. And I honestly can't blame people for thinking "wtf" when seeing Timmy in diapers. I mean, how you can make a friend wear something like this and some other stuff, who himself stated he didn't like wearing it, and embarrasse him like that, is beyond me. What Ayu did here and what failed hard was trying to get some attention for promoting Timmy as the freaky gay gaijin. You have to keep in mind that Japanese people love to show their "gaijin friends" because it's "cool" and I myself was often paraded around like a circus animal by some people and it often seemed to me Ayu was doing the exact same thing with Timmy. If you ask me, parading your gay friend from London around is the opposit of promoting gay rights.

[!Lawi!]

^Sorry if I gave the impression my post was aimed at your comment in particular, it was more of a general comment based on stuff that have been said in this thread and over the years!

I do agree that the stuff with Timmy has always been a bit off, and I felt that what was a very good concept for Hotel Love songs (the weird stage master / hotel director) should have stayed in this tour.

I suppose I can't talk for the general perception around what she does in Japan as I don't live there, and don't really speak with locals on the daily, but the point I was trying to make was that as a gay person she's done a lot over the years that made me feel good and represented in some way.

Again the main thing that surprises me as to how the LGBTQ discussion started in this thread was that I never really knew that was one of the reasons she wasn't popular. Can't it be argued she started being seen as 'has been' as early as (miss)understood or so? She didn't exactly have any kind of strong references until quite a lot later I think.

[tokyoxjapanxfan]

My “issue” with Timmy was similar in the sense that it felt like he was being used as a spectacle. We don’t know how much he wanted that, though. I mean he did his own makeup and it’s obviously something he was comfortable with (for at least some time.)

So it wasn’t my issue with him, just how he was used.

It felt... like a parody. I mean, Gomi also became a parody of himself (who is also gay), and Hikaru is now kind of going down that road lol. Still, it’s impossible to say Ayu is forcing any of this. I can’t imagine that if they expressed that they wanted to be used more “normally” that she’d oppose? In the end they’re in the world of entertainment and screen time and getting a name for yourself is surely part of that for some.

Timmy’s just felt closer to home because I’m also a foreigner and I’d hear the things people were saying about him. Kimoi, kimochiwarui, kowai... not very often that they were positive.

But I know that Ayu loves and values the gay community so I don’t really believe anything was ever done maliciously or forcefully.

(None of this is aimed at anyone, just offering my opinion.)

Personally I don’t think her embrace of the lgbtq community hurt her, considering is was done after her popularity had already started to wane. I think it’s just a case of over exposure and changing of trends. No one stays at the top forever.

My biggest annoyance now is just that I feel like for the past 10 years she failed to utilize the immense amount of talent that still exists in the music / entertainment industry. Instead, she just kept using the same team over and over again. (Minus a few instances of course.) For someone as big as Ayu, it just strikes me as odd that she seemingly just... stopped trying to progress.


This all comes from a place of love. I know it might sound too critical, but I don’t take it as seriously as it might sound haha.

[indigochild]

Originally Posted by tokyoxjapanxfan

My biggest annoyance now is just that I feel like for the past 10 years she failed to utilize the immense amount of talent that still exists in the music / entertainment industry. Instead, she just kept using the same team over and over again. (Minus a few instances of course.) For someone as big as Ayu, it just strikes me as odd that she seemingly just... stopped trying to progress.

Now here's the real tea. She is AYUMI HAMASAKI. She's not some small artist struggling to make it big. She has all the resources in the world to branch out but is just so comfortable in her little work family that it gets to the point where everything just starts to sound stale.

Like yes, she absolutely doesn't have to "prove" anything at this point in her career but that doesn't mean you just become... monotonous. And that's been my problem with Ayumi. Everything became boring. The songs she's been releasing aren't "bad"... but they also don't excite me anymore.

That said - I'm hopeful that she feels inspired again if her latest TA entry is accurate to how she is feeling and perhaps we'll get something interesting again.

[Chibi-Chan]

^^no problem, thank you for clarifying!

I agree with HLS. It was an amazing tour and I still think Timmy's role fit perfectly there (even though it was clearly an idea taken from Britney's Onyx Hotel Tour, but I don't mind because even though I love Brit's tour, Ayu's was even better). But that persona Timmy put on there should have stayed there.

I think Ayu's overall image and "scandals", including the Timmy stuff, made her not only look like a has been to some of the public, but also as pretty ridiculous. This is a problem, because I think this makes it quite impossible for her to ever be the it thing again, like Namie was able to. It is normal that her popularity wouldn't be what it was in her hey day at some point, but she build an image during the last ten years I would say that makes it emberassing for people to confess that you like her. I usually refrain from telling Japanese people I don't know well that I like her, because they automatically think of you as a trashy person - because this is what they think of Ayu, being trashy. Which is sad, because it's ultinately not true, but it's no wonder given some stuff.

[Toniayu123]

Originally Posted by Chibi-Chan

I usually refrain from telling Japanese people I don't know well that I like her, because they automatically think of you as a trashy person - because this is what they think of Ayu, being trashy. Which is sad, because it's ultinately not true, but it's no wonder given some stuff.

I’m not sure if her overall image was so trashy would she be able to sell tours like she does (or did really, it’s been more than a year already since the real concerts), unless it’s the same people going to every single show lol I don’t have many Japanese friends, but the ones I’ve talked to about my music tastes (on their early 20s) all said the same. “She is the utahime of the Heisei”. They perceive her as old, but that’s it.

[Chibi-Chan]

^They respect her legacy from the 90s and early 00s (which is what people refer to when calling her utahime of the heisei era), but during the last ten years, she has been perceived as trashy by a lot of people. She has a very loyal fanbase, which is why she is able to hold her tours, but the general public is not interested in being associated with the Ayu from the last ten years. Her early career is what people like about her and what is still selling, but the current Ayu not so much.

[Zeke.]

There’s a difference between why she’s not popular in Japan anymore and why there’s disconnect with even overseas fans. I think boring is less of a factor for Japan - their idea of a good time is getting some much needed shut eye induced by a snoozer of a track, figuratively speaking. Her voice plays a bigger factor in regard to her fallout with Japan than the people she’s working with.

[Andrenekoi]

Originally Posted by Zeke.

There’s a difference between why she’s not popular in Japan anymore and why there’s disconnect with even overseas fans. I think boring is less of a factor for Japan - their idea of a good time is getting some much needed shut eye induced by a snoozer of a track, figuratively speaking. Her voice plays a bigger factor in regard to her fallout with Japan than the people she’s working with.

Yep. This. All of this.

Some of her most disliked tracks by the overseas fandom actually are well Beloved in Japan (pun intended). But you can see a lot of complain about her voice in Youtube videos, for example.

[voltron]

This conversation seems to pop up every few years, so I'm just going to start by quoting myself.

All of this has been discussed to death, and will continue to be until the end of time probably. And that won't stop me from repeating what I've said many times before.

I think there are both conscious and unconscious reasons for "abandoning" Ayu. Certainly the things you listed above are a factor for some people, especially the general public/casual fans. She's not the same Ayu as before, and she has gotten older.

Then there's the unconscious level. And this is maybe my own theory on things, but Ayu was the voice of the "lost generation" in Japan. People always connected to her on this really personal level for her lyrics, her attitude, etc. During her prime, Ayu was a "bad Japanese woman" because she broke out of the mold in so many ways, and that was exactly what the general public was feeling and wanting during that time. Now, those people have all grown and settled into the more "expected" roles they play in life, and the current younger generation in Japan is really much more insular than the previous. Now Ayu's actions and behaviors as a "bad Japanese woman" are something to insult her for, it's not something they want to see in a Japanese popstar. I also contribute this to Namie's success - despite the bumpy rode she faced earlier in her career, but scrubbing her private personality from things (like, literally having her tattoos removed), she became this aspirational image of a cute, beautiful, talented, hard-working Japanese woman. And all of those things are certainly true, but it's a very specific image that she's portraying, and exactly what the general public want.

As for overseas fans, that's a different story altogether. But I also honestly feel like if she was blowing things out of the water in Japan a lot of her foreign fans would fall in line too.

I think she has tried to pull back her private life and be seen more as a "good Japanese woman" since around MADE IN JAPAN. And while it seems to have helped a bit, it's not a full rebrand. I also think Namie's retirement has helped her, because it's ended the cross-fandom hatred.

That said, I do think she has also stagnated a little bit by working with the same people so consistently. She herself has said that she doesn't really listen to music, and I don't think she has (or cares to have) her finger on the pulse of society and culture anymore - at least not musically. Her goal seems to be to continue to refine the dream that she wants to show us vs. create a new dream - that's why everything now feels so much more iterative than groundbreaking. And some people love this and eat it up, but the general public is looking for something more fresh. I think Ayu has it in her to do that - to pull a Namie and make super commercial music, but it's just not what she wants.

[AndyF]

Of course the media exposure was a big factor against her image over the last decade, but I don't really think that she cares about it. I mean, as long as she can sells out arenas and halls, there isn't any reason for her to bother. She's the most successful solo act of all Oricon period and no one seems to be even close to her.

Her last "standard era" was Love Songs, which did pretty well on charts (3 #1 singles and the album was #1 as well). After that, avex promotions were weak, and then the gossips overcame her musical releases. I don't believe in the "lack of quality" or "bad voice" idea. The big issue is that Avex only cares about where the money is, and it's all about selling tickets.

[KittyKathy]

I don't live in Japan, but I have always wondered if all people know who she is, ordinary Japanese people. If I told them her name, would I get a “who is that?” comment or they would know about Ayu?

[Chibi-Chan]

^They definitely know her. She was too big not to know her. It's like everyone here knows who Madonna is, but especially younger people might not know her songs or might have just heard them at karaoke once or saw her perform on kouhaku or something and that's it. People around 30 or older will definitely recognise songs like evolution, Boys & Girls and SEASONS and even start singing the chorus if you mention her. They often seem to feel kind of nostalgic. But they also often assume she isn't active anymore, because during the last years she was most often over the news for her private life and not for her music. It's safe to assume they don't know any songs after BLUE BIRD.