『M 愛すべき人がいて』The story of encounter & separation hidden in the birth of a songstress - Page 7 - Ayumi Hamasaki Sekai
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  #121  
Old 7th August 2019, 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by freedreamer View Post
i hope aeternal is just there because #currenpromo LOL
It wouldn’t be strange if it was. She probably still reminisce about it. It’s normal.
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  #122  
Old 7th August 2019, 06:42 AM
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@orbitalaspect What Japanese people will or will not think about Ayu actions is both none of our business and a little too much for us to try to pintpoint in a country with 126,8M people. Neither will she be loved by all, or most, or even half of those people, neither should she try to be. Utada's First Love is the best selling album in that market and it wasn't sold to 10% of that population.

Ayu as a public figure was always controversial to some extent, from the topless album cover back in the end of the 90's, to pretty much every single time she was way too much for what they expect from an ideal woman, something she is doing one way or another since the begining of her career. Besides those who jumped on the train when she was big, and left once the was past her prime, her career was never really designed to appeal to someone with much of an idealized image of what their idol should be.

In that sense she has lived and acted more as an artist, testing the bounderies of her own culture, and had been far braver in doing that than her peers.

Her iconic status is safe. Seiko Matsuuda was VERY scandalous for most of her career and she still is an icon. And it's just natural younger generations to know her better for her gossip than for her music, as she didn't released a big hit in a while.

We can say Utada, for example, played her cards better in a market point of view. What also means she isn't singing about several stuff she clearly wanted to, considering her USA releases. We can say Namie also played her cards better, but Namie admitelly was following trends as a way to keep the public coming back until her retirement date arrived.

Ayu wants to be free to express what she wants on the way she wants. Freedom is even a huge theme in her body of work, and on her case, being free will also be scandalous a she herself deviates from the norm of her own culture and already did before she was famous.

Calling her culturally unaware, when she released a full album and tour about this subject not too long ago, or even questioning her mental healthy (WTF?) is really fucked up.

I don't like to mention Chibi-Chan on my posts because I even blocked her. But someone who prides herself on being a feminist questioning a woman's mental health because she is giving her middle finger to how patriarchy wants her to act on her own society totally rubs me the wrong way.

Edit:
primavera♥ is like the best person to ever exist on this forum and God bless, we need her xD

Also, Ayu doesn't frequently sings about breaking the rules, true. She usually just go there and break them.
The point isn't whether she'll still be an icon, it's that, as voltron pointed out, people can and will look back on that time differently based on their impression of her now. I certainly wouldn't want someone jumping into "OMG didn't she have like two husbands and date her dancers and then she did some book about having a relationship with her manager..." when I bring up her work. But that's what happens when scandalous stuff is more relevant to an artist more recently than their actual work.

Everyone remembers Akina Nakamori as a huge success, and one of Seiko's biggest rivals, but her failed relationship and her drama with it practically destroyed her career in the late 80s. And while she's still known for that legacy, she's also known for being the idol that had a public meltdown over another idol she dated.

Same case with Seiko and her jealousy of other singers. She's widely known for being extremely jealous of her fading spotlight while other singers, even artists that preceded her, held onto their audiences.

People are human, and it's not like Ayu would never have had scandal one way or another. I mean, we all remember why she wrote alterna. We all remember Microphone. She's been very public through her career about her frustrations with the industry. But stuff like this book, like her love life, is just so easily avoidable. It's all on her that these scandals happen. She could get a therapist instead of desperately rushing into relationships with guys that work for her or foreigners who don't know the first thing about Japan or her career or her fans. Like, talk to someone, don't play this out when you know the public eye is on you like this.

And TROUBLE was not an album. It was a pretty low effort release, even if it had a few great songs. By comparison, KOKIA has nowhere near the resources Ayu does, and she recorded Tokyo Mermaid in the same amount of time, and that album was just as good as the 14 albums she had released before it. Hell, Koda Kumi put out FOUR albums between 2017 and 2018, and all four of them were more effort.

Like how these debates usually go, it's only unfair if we criticize the things you like. And it's perfectly normal for you to criticize the things we defend. The only reason someone would block Chibi is because you can't stand a woman who fully considers what is and isn't within her immediate control before giving her opinion. It's an extra step in the critical thinking process. And to be honest, if any of us had a years long mysterious relationship with our boss, we'd all be asked to get our heads examined too.
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  #123  
Old 7th August 2019, 07:31 AM
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^It's not a years long relationship, is it? It's an old relationship that impacted her. The book is not about how Ayu kept on dating Max all over those years, it's about how they were together once and how it impacted the creation of one, if not the, most iconic popstar in Japan's 00's.

And I don't know why to compare her to Kokia or Koda Kumi on those aspects...
Kokia produced 14 studio albums. Ayu produced full 17 studio albums and 4 EPs on the same time spam. Also 26 national tours. Koda produced 15 studio albums and less than 20 national tours in 19 years. You won't get any other jpop star who worked harder than Ayu during ther career and 3 years without a new full album for someone who worked that hard is pretty reasonable. Even TROUBLE, that is far from being her most interesting music release, gave us some pretty personal take on her life nowadays.

I mean... Koda took her time off. Kokia took her time off. Utada took 7 years off. Namie took her time off AND retired. But when Ayu doesn't release a new full album for 3 years and doesn't release new music for less than 2 years after overworking all those women for 18 years, this is some dirty sin, some signal of failure, of shame, of how much of a has been she is. Heck, she didn't even entered on a hiatus and toured non stop during all this time.

Damn you crazy sluty desperate hag who doesn't care about your legacy and can't deliver anymore!

Sometimes it may seen so, but I don't take things personal when it's about taste. I don't care all that much if people don't like her releases I like, or I wouldn't have survived the forum during Party Queen. But I do get annoyed when people say she doesn't care about her career, or that she is lazy, or that she crazy, like you do sometimes, because this isn't disliking her music, or videos or converts. This is attacking her as a human being.

I don't think she sings as bad as Cris says everytime there is a live performance released, based on how I was able to consume her live singing, for example, and disagree with him a lot more than I agree, and there won't be this level of arguing with him over that simply because he is giving his opinion on a technical aspect of her career he trully dislikes, not defending over and over again why she isn't worth of our respect as a person.

About Chibi-chan, I won't discuss over here why things took the direction they did. It's my fault talking about blocking her openly on the forum, but we did had our own share of directly talking to each other out of here before that, so, it wasn't a decision based on forum interaction.

I rarely, if ever, agree with you either, and everytime we interact it tend to become a pretty exausting (and I imagine boring/annoying for everyone else) war of wall of texts, and there you are, unblocked.
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Last edited by Andrenekoi; 7th August 2019 at 07:40 AM.
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  #124  
Old 7th August 2019, 09:11 AM
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I actually don't know why Andrenekoi blocked me and it's not that I would care. But I don't think it's fair of him to get all personal (again) so I think I deserve to say something even though it's off topic.
Like I said, I don't know why he blocked me, I only know that he tried to tell me I'm a bad feminist a few times and apparently he still isn't over it. If you would ask if I think of myself as a feminist, the answer would be yes, but I can't remember when I was like "look at me I'm a feminist". Simply because this isn't about getting brownie points but about taking a stand for what I think is right and if others see me as a feminist or not isn't something I care about. Speaking up for what I think is right should be enough to make clear where I stand.
But the reason why Andrenekoi is so hung up since years now (really years! I'm not joking) about whether I'm a feminist or not is that his idea of feminism (and that of most others here at ahs and what is popular on the internet) is not based on actual feminist thought, philosophical or political theory, but on one-liners on twitter and posts on tumblr.
I understand that it is popular in pop feminism to see women like Ayu or Madonna or whomever as "feminists" "showing the middle finger to patriarchy", because it doesn't require any systematic analysis of social structures and power dynamics. If you would apply feminist analysis to the "Max dating teenaged Ayu" situation, you would come to the same conclusion as me. There is nothing "rule breaking" about an adult man dating a young girl, on the contrary, it's the same patriarchal bullshit we see since the beginning of time. There are still a lot of places where men control women by marrying them of as young as possible and therefore robbing them of every opportunity to transition into adulthood by themselves and to become their own person. Age of consent laws are just a way to still grant adult man access to young girls. Legislation around sexual violence and what is concidered as such are usually still based on old legislation that was not suppossed to protect women and children from male violence, but to protect male property. One of the biggest risk factors for girls to end up in poverty and abusive relationships is entering relationships with adult men, because they often drop out of school and also don't work to support themselves ,since their partner promises to care for them. This makes girls very vulnerable.
When women are doing the same thing men do to women (like if Ayu dates Pei), this isn't feminism either. Feminism and therefore the women's liberation movement was called like this because women were (are) fighting for liberation from patriarchy for all women, not to have a seat at the table.
What Andrenekoi and others advocate for therefore isn't feminism, but neo liberalism. They are taking a stand for "everyone can do as they like and if a woman is successful with what she does, she is being a feminist". But in feminism it doesn't matter if Ayu as an individual woman is rich and feels "empowered" by what she does. In feminism it matters if women in general can live a life free of violence and with enough economic freedom to support themselves and not be dependent on men.
I understand that it is popular to be seen as "progressive", "woke" and "feminist". But this ain't feminism. And frankly I don't think everyone needs to be one. If you disagree with my analysis and with feminist political theory, that's fine with me. If you want to take a neo liberal, post modern approach, that's your right. But at least be honest about what you stand for.
This is probably what bothers me most about Andrenekoi and him bringing me up again, that he is intellectually dishonest and lazy in his analysis but has the nerve to go around here at ahs for years now spending his time to discredit me in order to play "who's a better feminist".

Last edited by Chibi-Chan; 7th August 2019 at 01:00 PM.
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  #125  
Old 7th August 2019, 09:20 AM
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Let's move this back to the subject at hand. Further posts not about the new book about Ayumi Hamasaki and Max Matsuura will be removed.
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  #126  
Old 7th August 2019, 11:24 AM
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This thread has become so tiresome to read so I'll keep it brief just to show support for specific sides.
I don't care about Ayu dating Pei, he is an adult.
I don't care about the book, it can only give me more insight into some of her songs and work purely informatively. It won't change a bit the way I see her.
I find Japanese society unfair and I can understand their norms but in my eyes, this country needs a really controversial figure to shake the scene truly.

I am grateful for the presence of users such as Andrenekoi and primavera whose views I share and who voice opinions of many people who prefer to just observe the whole situation.
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Last edited by maxikot; 7th August 2019 at 11:31 AM.
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  #127  
Old 7th August 2019, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Yagami Raito View Post

- aeternal
- Immigrant Song (Led Zeppelin)
- A song for xx
- poker face
- YOU
- Trust
- For My Dear...
- Depend on you
- WHATEVER
- TO BE
- Boys & Girls
- appears
- Vogue
- Far away
- SEASONS
- M
I'm so shocked seeing A Song for xx in this list, it's hard for me to imagine the lyrics being directed at anyone but her estranged father.
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  #128  
Old 7th August 2019, 06:08 PM
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^According to she herself, it was directed at her mother, actually.

And the reason why I don't know if the playlist is about the songs she wrote about Max, or just about the songs mentioned on the book.
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  #129  
Old 7th August 2019, 06:59 PM
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I would like to pretend that aeternal was about Nagase lmao
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  #130  
Old 7th August 2019, 07:07 PM
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I wonder if songs like monochrome, Dearest, Days and etc. were dedicated to max... but it's funny to know that M is actually not Maria, but max haha
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  #131  
Old 7th August 2019, 07:32 PM
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I wonder if songs like monochrome, Dearest, Days and etc. were dedicated to max... but it's funny to know that M is actually not Maria, but max haha
Actually, it could mean both. In the end, it's a song about ayu confessing to Maria about her ultimate love (and now we know it's Max).

Really loved her J.K. Rowling "I kept this secret for 20 years" complex.
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  #132  
Old 7th August 2019, 07:45 PM
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With the book coming out that photo of her and Pei seems very suspiciously timed.
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  #133  
Old 7th August 2019, 09:13 PM
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With the book coming out that photo of her and Pei seems very suspiciously timed.
But Ayu and Pei are together since january-february...
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I remember that were a lot of comments saying "ayu " on the second pic, and ever since that day he deactivated the comments on instagram .... just like ayu ..

https://www.instagram.com/p/BteH6LnhLpd/
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  #134  
Old 7th August 2019, 09:27 PM
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Man, I don’t want to think of Max when I hear M
LOL I was thinking this same thing
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  #135  
Old 7th August 2019, 09:37 PM
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[QUOTE=artcika;

So Ayu is alowing this BS to get released and GACKT is writing business advice books...gosh what are my fave artists doing? What is happening!? lol[/QUOTE]

I'm with you: I'm so angry with Gackt for all his gym videos and nonsense business. Ayu is far more focused on music thanks God
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  #136  
Old 7th August 2019, 10:31 PM
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I'm so shocked seeing A Song for xx in this list, it's hard for me to imagine the lyrics being directed at anyone but her estranged father.
After thinking about it, I assume it doubles both as a song both for one of her parents and Max's divorce (which I assume happened around this time). Depending how contentious it was, Ayu must have seen the effect it had on him.

And after reading aeternal's lyrics, it's quite fitting considering the book's material. Haha.
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  #137  
Old 8th August 2019, 02:34 AM
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I'm not surprised by any of this coming out. I'm sad for her in a way because their relationship sounds like it's full of a lot complications and dissatisfying feelings.

I am very interested in watching the drama. I think it's actually a very cool idea.
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  #138  
Old 8th August 2019, 04:51 AM
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Originally Posted by oaristos View Post
I'm so shocked seeing A Song for xx in this list, it's hard for me to imagine the lyrics being directed at anyone but her estranged father.
Hmm, I think in A Song for xx, the person telling her she is so strong is Max. That probably helped develop her feelings for him since it's may have been the first time someone said something positive about how she was dealing with her family situation. Since they allegedly didn't break up until vogue-Far away, SEASONS, I don't think the song was about him.

I find it very interesting that 10/16 songs in A BEST are in that playlist. When Ayu said A BEST "was the beginning of the end", I wonder if she meant it was due to her ending her relationship with Max. Maybe she thought since he would no longer produce for her, this would be her last album with avex. There are instances of producers dropping artists when there is a falling out in a relationship (although different circumstances, Kesha comes to mind).The lone tear on the cover, the commercials, and the monochrome colorway suddenly makes a lot more sense.

Another interesting thought is that she started to take control of her creative direction starting with M, which led to the creation of I am.... It was her first album which she basically self-produced. I think with RAINBOW, she realized she was a better, more independent woman (Real me) after these tough times (no rain, can't get no rainbow).

I hope the TV adaptation explores more about how her albums were created and show how Ayu developed to control her own image and destiny.
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  #139  
Old 8th August 2019, 05:05 AM
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it all sounds to me like Max had a daddy figure to ayu and she developed something for him but it was always in the shadows. Could be related to her lack of paternal love i think such things happen. Not entirely bizarre. Who knows how deep it went in real life?

When did she get together with Nagase again?
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  #140  
Old 8th August 2019, 07:56 AM
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I think A Song for XX is about her school days. There was a long explanation at the beatfreak or radio interview...
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