Is Ayu really 'legendary'?

[jang-kun]

Sometimes it really makes me wonder if her presence is actually acknowledged by the mass and by other artists as well, especially during her top years. Does her achievements overall sufficient enough for everyone to consider her status 'legendary'? I mean, AKB now is the "thing." And Ayu never sold a million copies of her single in a single day, nor she managed to make them consecutive million sellers. To those who really lived during her era, esp those who were in Japan, what makes or perhaps made her a legend?

Thank you for fruitful answers.

[isthisLOL?]

I don't have the Japanese perspective since...I don't live there, but generally what makes an artist legendary is influence rather than success itself.
AKB48 may sell a lot, but nothing they do has a lasting influence on the music business or the general public because what they do is relatively generic(I am NOT saying it is bad) and many girlgroups before have done similar things. They also have one core fanbase that is responsible for the high amount of sales, especially by buying multiple copies each as that is encouraged by the label, rather than having sales driven by casual listeners, visible by the first day sales, concert attendences...

Ayu, however, had lasting influences on music, other aspects of Pop(visuals, lyrical themes...) and the general public - and all that while selling a higher overall number of units than anybody else(as I said, success alone does not make you legendary, but it certainly helps, if Madonna had sold only 5 million albums she would not be considered legendary). To add to that, Ayumi, being a solo artist that always focused on her lyrics and personal expression, has much more of an "identity" then the AKB48 girls, who are essentially all replaceable as the artistic input doesn't come from them. You need to have an unique identity to be legendary, else there is nothing to truly associate the legacy with.

I hope this helped

[kinix]

Originally Posted by jang-kun

Sometimes it really makes me wonder if her presence is actually acknowledged by the mass and by other artists as well, especially during her top years. Does her achievements overall sufficient enough for everyone to consider her status 'legendary'? I mean, AKB now is the "thing." And Ayu never sold a million copies of her single in a single day, nor she managed to make them consecutive million sellers. To those who really lived during her era, esp those who were in Japan, what makes or perhaps made her a legend?

Thank you for fruitful answers.

I don't think you should compare single artist against group artist...
And AKB isn't a really good choice as they play tricks with their sales (Handshake session, voting tickets...) and not to mention that this isn't a normal group... it's freaking over 60 members =.=

Ayu, at her peak and even now is a legend of the Japanese records. Winning lots of awards and being the fashion icon. She's the 1st and only female artist to win the Japan Record award for consecutive 3 years (After that she stopped all nominations for those awards =( ). You could basically see her face everywhere on the busy street of japan during her peak and her songs being played in the stores. I think this is 1 of the thing that made ppl hate/got tired of her too =.= Just because she isn't the 'in' thing doesnt mean that she's not. I believe that this is a fact that nobody can disagree.

[RayJason]

I agree with the 2 posts above me.

And comparing ayu to [insert overrated popular group], is just a no-go for me. Those groups aren't near as legendary as ayu has been, therefore I see it as an insult to ayu.

To sum it up, yes, she is a legend.

[sugarbasil]

I came into the Ayu music scene like the day after Memorial Address came out, so I can't give a perspective of someone who was around during her peak; but my understanding is that Ayu had pretty much taken over the entire public sphere with her image. She was a heavy influence in the gal and parapara movement and was in so many commercials and ads. She actually changed a nation. Has AK8 or whoever they are done that?

So even if AK8 sells more than she did, it may not make them as memorable. Even the Backstreet Boys (kings of boy bands) won't be as long-remembered as Madonna.

[CherryMoon]

I think I will consider Ayumi, Namie and Utada to be the (recent)legends of J-pop. All the awards and records that Ayu has broken and the scandals. I was a fan during her peak, and even in Singapore, i could sense her status and she managed to sell 10,000 over copies of I am... (which was rare for j-pop). Maybe she is not selling over 500K now but she has definitely made a mark on J-pop history.

[Delirium-Zer0]

I've been following Ayu and Jpop in general for 12 years. Yes, she IS legendary. Absolutely.

If you listen to jpop from 1997 to 1999, there is a HUGE jump in quality. Ayu's sound CHANGED jpop, especially jpop for solo female artists. There's Jpop before Ayu, and jpop after ayu. you can hear a marked change in quality with artists like Amuro Namie, globe, Every Little Thing, and Puffy who were around both before and after ayu really became popular. It wasn't "poker face" that changed things, it was the "LOVEppears" era of singles. They were very unusually polished and, for lack of a better term, "thick" sounding. Ayu was a very unusually modern, futuristic sounding artist. Japan was finally catching up to the west in mixing & production tactics at that point, and everyone else had to play catch up. Ayu's perfectionism meant that after LOVEppears, the rest of jpop sounded REALLY REALLY dated, and REALLY REALLY fast.

Ayu's career as someone with any measure of influence really started with the trifecta of WHATEVER, ayu-mi-x, and LOVE~Destiny~. Once those releases cemented her place as a pop powerhouse on both sides of the pop spectrum - dance and ballads - and did so with tracks that were EXTREMELY well-produced and ironed out, that was when people really started paying attention to her. Other record labels saw her as a problem and pitted her against singers like Ami Suzuki and Utada Hikaru in sales "battles." At this point, EVERYONE was "up against" ayu. Even when Ayu was beaten (and in both of the above cases she was), it was always so-and-so versus Ayu. Ayu was always the constant.

Idols, actresses, and singers soon started emulating her style. I remember gravure idol Anzai Hiroko - she started sporting very SEASONS-ish curly blond hair & sun hats. Ayu's HAL-produced sound became so in demand, HAL produced a PLETHORA of jpop groups & songs between 2000 and 2004. When they got their own pop group, they got an aidoru who they dolled up to have the big eyes, pouty face look that Ayu was famous for at the time.

Her effect is lasting, too - Nishino Kana, for example, is a VERY clear derivative of ayu. Even less obvious influence appears in artists like Angela Aki. Ayu made it officially okay for female singers to have self-penned songs & connect emotionally with their audience. Most successful pop stars before Ayu did NOT do that, and even when they did (like, for example, Ann Lewis in the 80's), there wasn't a lasting trend that was created. Ayu bridged the gap between self-made and label-manufactured pop stars in a big way.

[ayu_ready?]

I still believe Ayu started the gyaru first trends at the end of the 90s with her look, and now it has evolved into a full-scale subculture
many can argue on that, but I have seen the first issues of egg (the first gyaru mag ever, '99 issues) and there has been too much going about Ayu and copying her looks at that period

I do agree that Ayu, Namie, Kuu & Utada are the legends. each in their own way
many might argue about Kuu, but let's do agree that her level of sexual exposure at the time was unbelievable and never done before, plus the ero-kakkoi thing as well. as seem now it doesn't look special, because many are using sexy image now, but I don't think at that period it was like that. I also think Kuu's still building her path, it's still incomplete a bit

I'm happy I have witnessed the peak of each of the legends

in ages AKB might become legendary, I do find the way their group is maintained & created to be kind of special. as a method

[Andrenekoi]

I have met some people who lived in Japan during Ayu's peak, and it seens like Ayu was that kind of artist you know how to sing some songs even if you hate them... They also said Japanese people overall seemed her as a legend.

Every pop artist tends to get lower sales after sometime, most of Madonna's sales and hits are from the 80's, as most of Matsutoya Yumi hits and sales are from mid 80's to mid 90's. The mainstream recording industry is moved by teenagers mostly, and teenagers tend to avoid anything that isn't new or fresh anymore and the first 10 years (and most artists aren't even able to be relevant for all that time) tend to be those who define the artist and their catalogue to the public.

Ayu is not selling loads anymore, but there are still signals of her enduring influence and popularity:

-She still has some of the most attended tours in Japan, among female stars probably she is only 2nd to Namie right now on this aspect.

-She still has to release a fruitless album... Even if she is not having million seller singles and blockbuster hits, on her last 3 albums (counting FIVE), she broke one of the hardest records on the industry, had a major videogame tie-in and released a song adopted as an anthem by a social group.

-The hottest things among teenagers right now, both Kana Nishino and AKB48 are influenced by her, I would dare say post TK Namie is also influenced.

-Any little fart she does still is spreaded by gossip magazines, what shows public interest.

-"in" Korean groups showed interest on collabing with her, they most likelly were influenced by her too at some point.

-She still is one of the most played karaoke artists in Japan, 10 years after her peak.

-She is on a cover of a big fashion magazine almost every month.

-You can see people from all age groups on her concerts.

^^

[Bigtop]

Kind of agreeing about what I hear in some way. Yes, I am quite a fan of AKB48, but as someone said "replaceable", I'm not sure how AKB48 will contribute long-term, because the Ayu effect is very long, while AKB48's replacability kind of questions me how long this will last, and I do have a feeling that some day (yes, some DAY) AKB48's popularity will start to decline...

But when I want to compare with Johnny's...which group should I compare with Ayu? Probably SMAP or something? (And what's the difference between AKB48 and Johnny's, and what differences do they have in terms of how it contributes to the Japanese pop music world yesterday, today and tomorrow?)

[Polyrhythm]

If not in music, definitely in fashion.

If there were no Ayu, there'd be no icons like Nishino Kana today (who I prefer over Ayu just saying so I'm not biased).

[Delicious n Bold]

Every single Japanese person I speak to knows about Ayu.
Even if they like her or not, they know about her.
That's legendary enough to me, when everyone under the sun (lol land of the rising sun) knows about her.

[Delirium-Zer0]

Originally Posted by Bigtop

Kind of agreeing about what I hear in some way. Yes, I am quite a fan of AKB48, but as someone said "replaceable", I'm not sure how AKB48 will contribute long-term, because the Ayu effect is very long, while AKB48's replacability kind of questions me how long this will last, and I do have a feeling that some day (yes, some DAY) AKB48's popularity will start to decline...

But when I want to compare with Johnny's...which group should I compare with Ayu? Probably SMAP or something? (And what's the difference between AKB48 and Johnny's, and what differences do they have in terms of how it contributes to the Japanese pop music world yesterday, today and tomorrow?)

AKB48's popularity will absolutely decline, but they'll probably always be known for their setup. But anyone my age just sees them as the new Hello!Project, and anyone slightly older than me just saw Morning Musume as the new Onyanko Club. Another huge supergroup of girls with rotating members will take their place. The "supergroup" version of Dream didn't have very good timing, they ran concurrently with Morning Musume for awhile and maybe contributed to the overall "huge girl group" trend, but nothing set them apart from MM enough to take their place. AKB48, however, got big with a new type of group organization & new types of releasing schemes right as Morning Musume's popularity was fading. There's nothing "special" about AKB48, but their timing was right so they'll probably remain as well-known as Onyanko Club and Hello!Project/Morning Musume long after everyone has forgotten about other huge girl groups like Dream.

As for Johnny's groups, some have been more influential than others on Jpop in general... Most (not all, but most) JE groups are only known as JE groups. Nothing really sets one apart from another, with rare exceptions. KinKi Kids, for example, are probably famous in their own right, not just because they're cute guys. You can't say that for groups like w-inds or News, I'm sorry to say. Other groups, like TOKIO, stand out for playing their own instruments, but you can't say they're as influential since a group of guys playing their own instruments is interesting in the context of Johnny's groups, but not in general. Plus JE groups like The Good-Bye (yocchan was on guitar & vocals in that particular group, btw) are less known, but they were the JE experiments that ultimately paved the way for TOKIO. Arashi wouldn't have happened if SMAP hadn't been successful.

I think the Johnny's era that gave us now well-known groups like SMAP, TOKIO, and KinKi Kids just happened to be at a time when Jpop was selling very, very well. It's not that those groups were especially influential, although they did have very high-quality pop songs in their respective repertoires and they are good looking guys. It's just that they were lucky, so they get to be well-known. I don't think these groups specifically have had a lasting effect on the Jpop world stylistically, but the Johnny's Entertainment umbrella as a whole probably has.

[mizuki-7]

You can read this article published in TIME magazine : The Empress of Pop

It describes very well the phenomenon of Ayumi Hamasaki ! there are 5 parts so good reading =)

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...218375,00.html

[ayu_ready?]

Originally Posted by Delirium-Zer0

AKB48's popularity will absolutely decline, but they'll probably always be known for their setup. But anyone my age just sees them as the new Hello!Project, and anyone slightly older than me just saw Morning Musume as the new Onyanko Club. Another huge supergroup of girls with rotating members will take their place. The "supergroup" version of Dream didn't have very good timing, they ran concurrently with Morning Musume for awhile and maybe contributed to the overall "huge girl group" trend, but nothing set them apart from MM enough to take their place. AKB48, however, got big with a new type of group organization & new types of releasing schemes right as Morning Musume's popularity was fading. There's nothing "special" about AKB48, but their timing was right so they'll probably remain as well-known as Onyanko Club and Hello!Project/Morning Musume long after everyone has forgotten about other huge girl groups like Dream.

As for Johnny's groups, some have been more influential than others on Jpop in general... Most (not all, but most) JE groups are only known as JE groups. Nothing really sets one apart from another, with rare exceptions. KinKi Kids, for example, are probably famous in their own right, not just because they're cute guys. You can't say that for groups like w-inds or News, I'm sorry to say. Other groups, like TOKIO, stand out for playing their own instruments, but you can't say they're as influential since a group of guys playing their own instruments is interesting in the context of Johnny's groups, but not in general. Plus JE groups like The Good-Bye (yocchan was on guitar & vocals in that particular group, btw) are less known, but they were the JE experiments that ultimately paved the way for TOKIO. Arashi wouldn't have happened if SMAP hadn't been successful.

I think the Johnny's era that gave us now well-known groups like SMAP, TOKIO, and KinKi Kids just happened to be at a time when Jpop was selling very, very well. It's not that those groups were especially influential, although they did have very high-quality pop songs in their respective repertoires and they are good looking guys. It's just that they were lucky, so they get to be well-known. I don't think these groups specifically have had a lasting effect on the Jpop world stylistically, but the Johnny's Entertainment umbrella as a whole probably has.

you always post the right things & you do it greatly

[ストロボ・EdGE]

Originally Posted by Delirium-Zer0

AKB48's popularity will absolutely decline, but they'll probably always be known for their setup. But anyone my age just sees them as the new Hello!Project, and anyone slightly older than me just saw Morning Musume as the new Onyanko Club. Another huge supergroup of girls with rotating members will take their place. The "supergroup" version of Dream didn't have very good timing, they ran concurrently with Morning Musume for awhile and maybe contributed to the overall "huge girl group" trend, but nothing set them apart from MM enough to take their place. AKB48, however, got big with a new type of group organization & new types of releasing schemes right as Morning Musume's popularity was fading. There's nothing "special" about AKB48, but their timing was right so they'll probably remain as well-known as Onyanko Club and Hello!Project/Morning Musume long after everyone has forgotten about other huge girl groups like Dream.

As for Johnny's groups, some have been more influential than others on Jpop in general... Most (not all, but most) JE groups are only known as JE groups. Nothing really sets one apart from another, with rare exceptions. KinKi Kids, for example, are probably famous in their own right, not just because they're cute guys. You can't say that for groups like w-inds or News, I'm sorry to say. Other groups, like TOKIO, stand out for playing their own instruments, but you can't say they're as influential since a group of guys playing their own instruments is interesting in the context of Johnny's groups, but not in general. Plus JE groups like The Good-Bye (yocchan was on guitar & vocals in that particular group, btw) are less known, but they were the JE experiments that ultimately paved the way for TOKIO. Arashi wouldn't have happened if SMAP hadn't been successful.

I think the Johnny's era that gave us now well-known groups like SMAP, TOKIO, and KinKi Kids just happened to be at a time when Jpop was selling very, very well. It's not that those groups were especially influential, although they did have very high-quality pop songs in their respective repertoires and they are good looking guys. It's just that they were lucky, so they get to be well-known. I don't think these groups specifically have had a lasting effect on the Jpop world stylistically, but the Johnny's Entertainment umbrella as a whole probably has.

Nail on the head.

[isthisLOL?]

Originally Posted by Delirium-Zer0

AKB48's popularity will absolutely decline, but they'll probably always be known for their setup. But anyone my age just sees them as the new Hello!Project, and anyone slightly older than me just saw Morning Musume as the new Onyanko Club. Another huge supergroup of girls with rotating members will take their place. The "supergroup" version of Dream didn't have very good timing, they ran concurrently with Morning Musume for awhile and maybe contributed to the overall "huge girl group" trend, but nothing set them apart from MM enough to take their place. AKB48, however, got big with a new type of group organization & new types of releasing schemes right as Morning Musume's popularity was fading. There's nothing "special" about AKB48, but their timing was right so they'll probably remain as well-known as Onyanko Club and Hello!Project/Morning Musume long after everyone has forgotten about other huge girl groups like Dream.

As for Johnny's groups, some have been more influential than others on Jpop in general... Most (not all, but most) JE groups are only known as JE groups. Nothing really sets one apart from another, with rare exceptions. KinKi Kids, for example, are probably famous in their own right, not just because they're cute guys. You can't say that for groups like w-inds or News, I'm sorry to say. Other groups, like TOKIO, stand out for playing their own instruments, but you can't say they're as influential since a group of guys playing their own instruments is interesting in the context of Johnny's groups, but not in general. Plus JE groups like The Good-Bye (yocchan was on guitar & vocals in that particular group, btw) are less known, but they were the JE experiments that ultimately paved the way for TOKIO. Arashi wouldn't have happened if SMAP hadn't been successful.

I think the Johnny's era that gave us now well-known groups like SMAP, TOKIO, and KinKi Kids just happened to be at a time when Jpop was selling very, very well. It's not that those groups were especially influential, although they did have very high-quality pop songs in their respective repertoires and they are good looking guys. It's just that they were lucky, so they get to be well-known. I don't think these groups specifically have had a lasting effect on the Jpop world stylistically, but the Johnny's Entertainment umbrella as a whole probably has.

Quality post right here!

[Mirrorcle Monster]

There is no doubt Ayu is a legend and she changed the industry IMO. She had her peak (which lasted for long if we consider it is Japanese market and that Ayu released albums every year and singles every few months) and now she is declining, but she still might have a second peak (not THAT big but she still can create that touching song for everyone)
About AKB48, i think they deserve to be legends. The way they organize themeselves, the way they sell their stuff (handshake events, elections....) is really innovative and they really made idol girls HUGE again. They deserve the success they have imo

[jewelbox]

Originally Posted by ayu_ready?

I still believe Ayu started the gyaru first trends at the end of the 90s with her look, and now it has evolved into a full-scale subculture
many can argue on that, but I have seen the first issues of egg (the first gyaru mag ever, '99 issues) and there has been too much going about Ayu and copying her looks at that period.

Yes, definitely.
Namie actually started the kogal fashion which evolved to ganguro-kei and other gyaru movements. Ayu made chapatsu, hair bleachin/dyeing acceptable and popular and also started the hime-kei fashion.
I think she is a legend in the japanese music industry, just like Nakamori Akina and Yamaguchi Momoe.

[ExodusUK]

I think it's really hard for words to justice to how powerful/successful Ayu was at her peak, she just wasn't the face of Jpop she was the face of Japan. At the time when Ayu debuted female popstars were mostly just idols, she arrived with confidence and a dark streak in her music. hitomi and Namie up until that point were just idols singing whatever TK gave them.

Also AKB48 will totally decline, at one point MoMu were in their postion and look at them now. I bet the average person on the street now wouldn't be able to name more than five members of MoMu or more than five songs.

And what Delirium-Zer0 said is very true, compare any Jpop album from the time to loveppears and Loveppears simply blows them all way in terms of production, polish, diversity, songs and sound. It's still very impressive. The jump in quality in such little from ASFXX is astonishing.