Ayu's dancer Hide has changed sex from man to woman

[TeamAyu2004]

I guess it comes done to what defines a man and what defines a woman?

Is it the sexual organs? or is it something else?
The answer might be different for everyone... so the views would be different..

I for one would find it weird to see a woman on the street and refer to her as a woman, but finding out that she use to be a man, so you would instead refer to her as a man now because you know the 'truth"? Now thats weird.
And it doesn't have anything to do with PC... it has to do with what each and every individual wants.

[Chibi-Chan]

Originally Posted by norwegian blue

Also, transgenderism has nothing to do with sexual orientation, so I don't understand why people keep talking about homophobia?

agree

[TeamAyu2004]

people say that so you wont attack them for some reason or another...

it's like the expression. 'I'm not racist, I have black friends."

[happiholic★]

Originally Posted by norwegian blue

Did you even read this thread? Because that's something seriously ignorant to say, especially after a bunch of people have explained why you're completely wrong.

Also, transgenderism has nothing to do with sexual orientation, so I don't understand why people keep talking about homophobia?

From my personal experiences, I've grown up along side many people who think that homosexuality is "evil", a lot of them tend to categorize people who are homosexual with people who are transsexual. They see them all as "gay" and discriminate just the same.

[Chibi-Chan]

Originally Posted by Uemarasan

I'm not a homophobe (I am in fact a lifelong homosexual), but I've always believed that homophobes have the right to their opinions and should never be castigated for making them.

And to be honest I really wonder why someone, who says he is a "lifelong homosexual" isn't able to get the difference between homosexuality and transsexualism. For me this looks like someone just trying to justify homophobe and ignorant statements with the typical "I'm not racist, I have black friends" argument (what I know as "I'm not racist, some of my best slaves are black"), as already mentioned.

[isthisLOL?]

"I'm not racist, just ask all the people I own!" - Karen Walker, Will & Grace

[TeamAyu2004]

I love Karen.

But people, really, the thread is devolving into something bad...
We were doing so good talking back and forth, now it just seems like attacking.

[Andrenekoi]

Usually, prejudice against transsexual people is called "transphobia"... It not the same as homophobia and a lot of non-homophobic people are transphobic.

@TeamAyu2004
Stop trying to start drama.

[emi♡]

Originally Posted by TeamAyu2004

We were doing so good talking back and forth, now it just seems like attacking.

"Attacking" because someone had a wrong opinion and everyone is expressing their negative opinions of it?

Everyone has the right to express their opinion about someone else's statement. Just because there's a bunch of people replying to one person, does not constitute attacking.


And, idk for the record, there's only one reason for homophobia, and it's just plain stupidity and ignorance.

So, of course people have the right to be ignorant. Just don't push your ignorance on others. Because they don't have that right.


He does have the right to define how he sees men and women though. I think it's sad someone would choose biology over the content of a person's character, but, people are people.

[TeamAyu2004]

Originally Posted by emi♡

"Attacking" because someone had a wrong opinion and everyone is expressing their negative opinions of it?

It has nothing to do with the different opinions, its how you express your opinion. The original poster may not find it attacking. I'm just saying people are getting awful close and it is slowly going to come to a slap fight.
I mean look at Andrenekoi, starting drama already with my comment.
I wouldn't want this thread to be closed because its a nice change to the usual im right your wrong.
a mod has already warned us, so i'd just like to keep it civil.

[jean-baptiste]

I can't speak for anyone else but when I say "I'm not a homophobe" I'm stating that in order for others to see that my comments or questions are not coming out of hatred or disgust but out of innocent curiosity and, in most cases, ignorance. I believe that if one were to read my earlier post (questioning if transsexualism is a mental illness) I believe there would be many who would jump down my throat without some sort of apology (for lack of a better word) before hand. I'll admit, it was ignorant of me to use the word "homophobe" instead of "transphobe" but it's not like I didn't say in the exact same post that I'm ignorant of this topic.

[Andrenekoi]

Originally Posted by jean-baptiste

I can't speak for anyone else but when I say "I'm not a homophobe" I'm stating that in order for others to see that my comments or questions are not coming out of hatred or disgust but out of innocent curiosity and, in most cases, ignorance. I believe that if one were to read my earlier post (questioning if transsexualism is a mental illness) I believe there would be many who would jump down my throat without some sort of apology (for lack of a better word) before hand. I'll admit, it was ignorant of me to use the word "homophobe" instead of "transphobe" but it's not like I didn't say in the exact same post that I'm ignorant of this topic.

Relax! I believe everybody understood u just wasn't informed about the subject and was curious... what is more than normal! This isn't a topic that gets a lot of spotlight on media and nobody borns knowing about those stuff. ^^

[jean-baptiste]

^Thank you!

[Catzi]

I think a lot of people are calling it homophobia, because LGBT is usually associated as a group.

Uemarasan is right in that that "sex" and "gender" are different. "Sex" is biological, and "gender" is social. However, if a person decides to do sexual reassignment surgery, then clearly this person wants to change they gender and sex, so this:

Unless Hide himself expressly requests me to use the feminine pronoun to refer to him, I don't think I am beholden to do so. Political correctness and fear of social reprisal shouldn't dictate anyone's personal choices and actions. It didn't in Hide's case, and it shouldn't in my case either.

doesn't make sense. It would be pretty obvious that she would want to be a she, and not a he that likes to dress up as a she.

[Kanzaki]

Well if we're talking about defining gender, you'd have to think about what a "gender" is. Is it just one thing, or is it multiple? I think there's a biological gender (sexual organs), which is what it is. The way you percept yourself, is the gender you truly are, psychologically. People who are, for example, born female, but feel male will feel like the sex they feel is who they are, and denying them to become that sex entirely is like for them to be bereft of oxygen (actual quote from a person who had a sex change).

We can do amazing things for people in this day and age, but when we enable people to biologically become one thing their bodies never were, it's wrong to presume that it's something new for them. They've always been that gender on the inside, regardless of what they now look like. That is why I think, that not only is calling them by the sex they don't see themselves as disrespectful, it is simply incorrect.

[ImpactBreaker]

It's because gender and sex aren't simply defined as one thing. For example, gender identity is how the person identify themselves as being female, male or variants. Gender role is how the person presents themselves through social norms, which can greatly vary between cultures. A woman can have a female identity, meaning she feels she is a woman, but she likes to use man clothes, take "manly" jobs (car mechanic), engage into fights, be completely uninterested in make up and hate pink, etc and sexually only like men. Such women would be pranked as a "tomboy". Her identity is female, her role is somewhat masculine and her orientation is straight. In a more liberal society, people won't pay much different from this type of female to others, but she can definitely cause uneasy awareness on some people if she were to visit a more conservative society. I've seem some homophobes get surprised when they see a gay man who has a masculine role, because some of them are so ignorant that think all gay men are supposed to have girly facial and hand gestures, be uninterested in guys stuff and prefer girly stuff. Sex exchange surgery (not transgenderism), in the ground of other sexual and gender matters is definitely a newer subject compared to others so obviously there's a lot of maturation the societies have to go through before some of the taboos get broken.

It makes me wonder though, for a man who likes women, if they were to meet Hide and she presented herself solely as a woman (hmmm let's say he actually weren't able to guess she used to be a man), and they started a relationship and later he discovered she used to be a man (or trapped in a man's body or however), how would the guy feel about it? Cheated? Confused? It obviously would depend on his own opinions on thge matter, his prejudices or whatever. I mean, at some part of such a relationship there MAYBE would have a moment that Hide would have to tell the guy about her past, and that would mean that he used to be a man (or have a man's body or however people feels less liek it wouldn't sound like an insult), and I don't think that would be completely irrelevant in order to be neglected. There obviously are guys in the world who lare strasight who definitely wouldn't care if they are with someone who is now a woman because of sex exchange surgery, though, but that isn't a rule. The point of me bringing this more complicated matter is because I'm sure some of the people who tried to post that they don't feel completely at ease to calling her female at all points is because, Hide has a female identity and but her role is feminine transgender. This is not just like playing a Mario game and pressing a button and saying I was playing as Mario, now I'm playing as Luigi. This type of controversy is sure to pop into people's minds and that doesn't necessarily mean they're extreme ignorants. After all was Michael Jackson Black or White? All I know is he was human.

[emi♡]

Personally, I think it depends on the relationship with the person.

For example, it's completely irrelevant to me whether Hide once identified as something other than female (in whatever way), because we aren't close.

If I was to seek out a relationship with that person, it would be different. What we've gone through in life makes up who we are. It doesn't have to define us, people choose to be what they want, because they choose how to handle themselves and their emotions.

But I think it's as relevant as mentioning a past job or something. Sometimes it means a lot, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it has changed the person, sometimes it hasn't.

But to not be truthful about your life and who you are and who you have been...I think that's more the point of telling, rather than it actually being important what you once were.

Personally, whenever I'm involved in this discussion, most people say that it only matters who the person is now.


I've been involved in other discussions where, we were asked about roles, and would we care if our partners had had a different role in the past. Most people again, said no, it depends on what the person is now. For a few of us, yes, it bothers us.

It's our right to that.

But I think it's important to remember that, even if we don't want something in our lives, that doesn't mean it's wrong, and it doesn't give us the right to put others down, or treat them as anything other than human.

It also doesn't mean that maybe we shouldn't try to give them the most respect possible. To me, respecting someone's identity is pretty important.

[Calico]

I'm happy for her, and hope her journey is as simple as possible.

As for all the binary talk, I can see both sides of the issue when it comes to labels. I don't really associate with any labels. I mostly identify to other people what I'm NOT. I'm not heterosexual. I'm cis (meaning I am comfortable with the body I was born with) but am more genderfluid than "man" or "woman". When I say I am a lesbian, I mean I prefer to be with women, and they are who I search for in partners. But I also have fallen in love with men, so technically I am more bi or pansexual. As for gender, I am not a man, but I desire masculinity over femininity for myself. Basically, when people meet me for the first time, they label me as "a butch lesbian" and I go with it because it's easier to deal with than sit and say "well actually..." for a half hour. When I was in high school I had a lot of issues with my body as opposed to my gender, and I wondered for a long time if I was trans*. But at the end of the day I'm comfortable with my body - it was SOCIETY'S pressure on me to conform to certain traits because of my sex that was causing me all my anxiety. I'm comfortable with myself now, but there are times when I am depressed that I hate myself for how I was born.

So what I'm saying is, in *my* experience through this life of my own outlook and those of people I have met all over the world...there is no ultimate answer. We will always label each other. It's how we function. And I don't even necessarily think labels are bad, so long as we are willing to listen to one another and respect each other's wishes. But that's in a perfect world, which is where the drama stems from.

So I wish her all the best of luck. She looks so happy!

/goes back to her cave.

[Larien]

Originally Posted by emi♡

Personally, I think it depends on the relationship with the person.

For example, it's completely irrelevant to me whether Hide once identified as something other than female (in whatever way), because we aren't close.

If I was to seek out a relationship with that person, it would be different. What we've gone through in life makes up who we are. It doesn't have to define us, people choose to be what they want, because they choose how to handle themselves and their emotions.

But I think it's as relevant as mentioning a past job or something. Sometimes it means a lot, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it has changed the person, sometimes it hasn't.

But to not be truthful about your life and who you are and who you have been...I think that's more the point of telling, rather than it actually being important what you once were.

Personally, whenever I'm involved in this discussion, most people say that it only matters who the person is now.


I've been involved in other discussions where, we were asked about roles, and would we care if our partners had had a different role in the past. Most people again, said no, it depends on what the person is now. For a few of us, yes, it bothers us.

It's our right to that.

But I think it's important to remember that, even if we don't want something in our lives, that doesn't mean it's wrong, and it doesn't give us the right to put others down, or treat them as anything other than human.

It also doesn't mean that maybe we shouldn't try to give them the most respect possible. To me, respecting someone's identity is pretty important.

I like you.

[emi♡]