Are Morning Musume bad for Japan's image?

[Halla]

honestly, YES!

The thing I dislike about the the whole japanese entertainment scene are the pre-teen girls pandering to old pervs, and how acceptable in J-pop/entertainment it is

I'm not denying that Tsunku isn't a talented pop-producers, I've liked some of his work with non-H!P artists and two H!P songs ("Sugisugite Baka Mitai" & "Some Boys! Touch"), but the whole H!P is exploiting the poor girls. the girls don't make that much money & are subjected to all sorts of rules.

H!P girls themselves have questionable talent (only a few of them I could call talented) and the whole stylistic direction of the whole H!P is really fug. with their gaudy & ridicilous costumes they look like they're stuck in the 90s.

tho fortunately I don't think H!P has that much of a effect on anything these days, seems like they're slipping further away from the mainstream each passing year. finally

speaking of Tsunku.. is it true he slept with Maki Goto?

[criminal]

Yeah, those two, along with Ayumi Hamasaki and Max Matsuura are the prime examples of what it takes to get a recording/producing contract!

[*Petit*]

Originally Posted by Halla

honestly, YES!

The thing I dislike about the the whole japanese entertainment scene are the pre-teen girls pandering to old pervs, and how acceptable in J-pop/entertainment it is

I'm not denying that Tsunku isn't a talented pop-producers, I've liked some of his work with non-H!P artists and two H!P songs ("Sugisugite Baka Mitai" & "Some Boys! Touch"), but the whole H!P is exploiting the poor girls. the girls don't make that much money & are subjected to all sorts of rules.

H!P girls themselves have questionable talent (only a few of them I could call talented) and the whole stylistic direction of the whole H!P is really fug. with their gaudy & ridicilous costumes they look like they're stuck in the 90s.

tho fortunately I don't think H!P has that much of a effect on anything these days, seems like they're slipping further away from the mainstream each passing year. finally

I'm not really disagreeing with your points, but this applies to ALL teen idols, not just musume, so I don't think they are in particular responsible for this so called bad image. IMO there's a reason why japanorama choose to show AKB48 when showing otaku feeding girls and not morning musume. Morning Musume probably is one of the cleanest of its kind.

As I see it, it's not really exploiting girls either. THey girls get to sing and dance in front of an audience, and only by looking at them you can tell most of them enjoy performing. Yes it's true that some families rely on these girls for extra financial support, but Japan is not a third world country and it's not like poor thai families selling their 12 year olds to a brothel for a sack of rice.

Finally, a biger portion of H!P is actually catered towards kids than you might imagine. The kirari anime and mini moni are great examples. THe problem is that no matter which demogaphic the merchandise is catered at, whoever can buy the goods including old salary men.

[Halla]

Old article about H!P from the UK mag Guardian

What the girls themselves think of their drooling followers became something of a talking point in fan circles last year when audio footage was leaked of unguarded backstage comments made by Momusu's Rika Ishikawa. 'Look at them,' she shrieked, referring to fans in the front row. 'Grown-ups screaming like that! I can't believe it. So stupid!'

the rationale behind the marketing of pubescent pop stars and adult porn stars is remarkably similar. Tsunku and Japanese pornographer Ganari Takahashi even published a book in which they compare notes on how best to promote the talents of girls in their respective fields

[truehappiness]

Originally Posted by criminal

Yeah, those two, along with Ayumi Hamasaki and Max Matsuura are the prime examples of what it takes to get a recording/producing contract!

.. that totally wasn't necessary o-o;

[Weslicious]

Originally Posted by Halla

Old article about H!P from the UK mag Guardian

OMG. Thanks so much for the article. Seriously, Tsunku knows exactly what he's marketing them as. It is actually rather vile.

[qwerty]

I used to think badly of MM for how they were marketed, but now I like them because they're cute. I think their fanbase is varied; people who like cute girls who sing and dance would probably like them. The generalization that their only fanbase are old, perverted men is a little narrow-minded, in my opinion. MM doesn't sing lyrics that are too deep, but that's fine.

I also think cultural differences play a huge part in the perspective of MM. Japan probably doesn't care how MM is marketed as; they probably just shrug it off. I think the West, however, thinks that when girls are marketed as that, they're the prime target for pedophiles. I strongly disagree with that. I simply believe that the group was just created for fans to have cute, bubblegum pop music.

I remember when that Guardian article was first published. Its sleezy nature, especially the stuff about Johnny's, seemed to be trying to garner a cheap pop from the readers more than informing.

I'm with Petit that H!P isn't an exploitation. These girls know what comes with the territory of being an idol, and they know there are certain guidelines to adibe by. If the rules are broken, they face the consequences. This is no different than other professions.

Originally Posted by *Petit*

Just because the musicians aren't in dark clothes playing the instruments themselves and mostly being *male* doesen't mean it's a *lesser* form of music. there are actually more people working on morning musume songs than on such band songs (as an example) and tsunku has used many very talented and amazing musicians to work with the project, not to mention he's a great and creative musician himself.

Definitely. The idea that an artist is not legit if they don't create, write, or compose their own music is bogus. As you pointed out, the individuals behind H!P are extremely talented. And that's not to say the girls in the spotlight aren't. They all may not be the best singers and dancers, but they are skilled performers and entertainers. Their music is just as valid as more "serious" artists.

[Lee_Hamasaki]

yes they are a stupid group. Idon't understand how can people like a group that change her members every year.

[bulmasman]

I can't give a completely unbias answer in all of this for the simple fact that MM/H!P has pretty much become my favourite music group/agency whatever you wanna call it, (surpassing Ayu etc...).

I don't think they give Japan a bad image in the slightest, it's only down to the Western view of it where problems arise imo. It's not normal to see young performers in the charts etc... here in the west, and if you do it's generally some lame throwaway song.

I have purchased one photobook, Tanaka Reina's Alo Hello one, and i have to say i love it. It's tastefully done, none of the poses are really sexual, the photo's just depect her having a good time and enjoying herself for the most part.

Personally I have no qualms at all with the whole photobook section of the merchandise since idol singers have been releasing them since the 80's, it's a staple of the Idol music scene, so it's extremely unfair to target H!P for their PB releases.

Also, there's PB's are only an added part of the fandom, not a main factor by any means. I love the girls not so much for their looks, but their personalities. I don't think i've laughed so much before as when i watch clips of them on shows like Utaba or their own show's such as Hello Morning or Haromoni@. They're funny, entertaining and a complete joy to watch.

As for the music, it's been stated a few times now but there have been some talented musicians employed to work on these songs, not to mention Tsunku writing near enough every lyric. Sure, some song's may not be that deep, but then you also get stuff like Furusato which is really quite a touching song.

Also, to those who say the girls have no talent, or very little, i'm guessing you haven't seen the Ribon no Kishi musical. It opened my eye's to just how talented the group is, being able to carry a stage musical.

I'm not so surprised by this thread though at all. For the non-fans i can see how it can be slightly off putting, but half the time a lot of these people have never really given the group a proper chance or actually tried to understand the fandom beyond the whole "they're young and in bikini's" thing. Still, i'm not gonna tell people their opinion's are wrong, or that they should stfu, and i'm happy that this thread didn't descend into those types of remarks.

[truehappiness]

Originally Posted by bulmasman

I can't give a completely unbias answer in all of this for the simple fact that MM/H!P has pretty much become my favourite music group/agency whatever you wanna call it, (surpassing Ayu etc...)

!!!

[bulmasman]

Originally Posted by truehappiness

!!!

oh yeh, i'm completely addicted lol.

Oh, and i forgot to quote this is my last post...

Originally Posted by Lee_Hamasaki

yes they are a stupid group. Idon't understand how can people like a group that change her members every year.

This i find to be a very narrowminded comment. What may i ask makes them "stupid"? The member changing thing should hardly reflect on the musical output of the group, and this really added nothing to the discussion.

[PSYCHEDELICOdust]

A few things. Please read.

1. Tsunku doesn't promote them, he is the man behind the music and nothing else, their management agency UP-FRONT WORKS does.

2. Pre-pubescent idols and groups of them existed long before Morning Musume was ever concieved. See Onyanko Club. And IF you must go after a group, I'd say AKB48 is even worse in terms of marketing, although I enjoy their music too.

3. Why do you care? If you think it's disgusting, then just ignore it. Do you feel the need to make yourself feel superior by attacking other people's interests? And what do you have invested in Japan? If you're not a fan of things concerning idols, you shouldn't have to worry about the "shame" involved with them and clarify this easily if someone makes the assumption.

4. Finally, the girls go into this. They're the ones that made the decision to go into this. The idol life isn't exactly not known about in Japan so the girls are quite capable of being fully aware that they're going into a business where THEY are the commodity.

[Bazaa]

Well, the whole gravure idol thing does bother me a bit, but MM are more than that, I guess. I'm not really a fan of them, but they can't exactly control who's buying their material, so I wouldn't say they're bad for Japan's image. I can't say the same for gravure idols, especially the ones on their preteens, it's kinda scary when you think what all those old men do with those pictures >_<

[namiie]

Originally Posted by Halla

The thing I dislike about the the whole japanese entertainment scene are the pre-teen girls pandering to old pervs, and how acceptable in J-pop/entertainment it is

I'm not denying that Tsunku isn't a talented pop-producers, I've liked some of his work with non-H!P artists and two H!P songs ("Sugisugite Baka Mitai" & "Some Boys! Touch"), but the whole H!P is exploiting the poor girls. the girls don't make that much money & are subjected to all sorts of rules.

Originally Posted by Bazaa

Well, the whole gravure idol thing does bother me a bit, but MM are more than that, I guess. I'm not really a fan of them, but they can't exactly control who's buying their material, so I wouldn't say they're bad for Japan's image. I can't say the same for gravure idols, especially the ones on their preteens, it's kinda scary when you think what all those old men do with those pictures >_<

Hmm, I'd have to agree with both these points.

Originally Posted by PSYCHEDELICOdust

3. Why do you care? If you think it's disgusting, then just ignore it. Do you feel the need to make yourself feel superior by attacking other people's interests? And what do you have invested in Japan? If you're not a fan of things concerning idols, you shouldn't have to worry about the "shame" involved with them and clarify this easily if someone makes the assumption.

Sorry, but you had me taking you seriously up until this point. Ignorance is bliss? COME ON. That's like saying, "If you don't like pedophilia, just ignore it". I'm not saying that there definitely is that kind of thing involved in MM, but if there is ignoring it should be the last thing we do. The person you're replying to may not be a MM fan, but he/she's a Japanese music fan and MM is part of Japanese music. You don't know what really goes on behind H!P operation either, so I doubt your defenses of them are any more iron-clad than Weslicious's suspicions.

[elepop]

Some of you guys are plain ignorant.

Japan is a perverted world. (Go watch Kelly Osbourne show.) They have all those hentai manga and anime. Even manga and anime like Sailor Moon and Cardcaptor Sakura express sexual manners. They make all those overly sexual cosplay. They have freaking cafe shops that has "cute" dressed waitress that even do massages for their freaking clients. And so on. Why the hell are people blaming MM? Japan is ruining it's own image.

[bulmasman]

Everywhere is perverted to a certain extent. The US is home to the worlds biggest pornography industry for example.

The maid cafe's don't bother me at all... what's so bad about getting a hand massage from a cute girl in a cute dress? it's not like she's parading around nude while you drink your coffee.

Also on the cosplay side of thing, ok sometimes it can be overly sexual... but hey, the girls choose to do it themselves, they're not being forced by gunpoint to make a costume and get their pictures taken.

[Halla]

I've seen the Kelly Osbourne in Japan show, and the maid cafe definitely has some weird sexual undertones with all the maids acting submissive and hand massages and stuff

I personally wouldn't call Japan perverted, it's just very different culture when it comes to what is allowed or a taboo or whatever. and a lot of stuff is legal or allowed there that isn't in most of the western world ...

[PSYCHEDELICOdust]

Originally Posted by namiie

Hmm, I'd have to agree with both these points.



Sorry, but you had me taking you seriously up until this point. Ignorance is bliss? COME ON. That's like saying, "If you don't like pedophilia, just ignore it". I'm not saying that there definitely is that kind of thing involved in MM, but if there is ignoring it should be the last thing we do. The person you're replying to may not be a MM fan, but he/she's a Japanese music fan and MM is part of Japanese music. You don't know what really goes on behind H!P operation either, so I doubt your defenses of them are any more iron-clad than Weslicious's suspicions.

The reason I say it here is because it's complaining about it on a FORUM. if there was actually an effort to CHANGE it in Japan, I'd be saying something different.

Really now, are you going to go and do something about it? Actions talk louder than words, and until something is done to change it, maybe people could stop talking about it like they're above it yet do nothing about it.

Also, if you want me to go away, move this to the Japan forum which I don't touch. This is Asian MUSIC Chat. I follow H!P for the music. Ask any of the H!P Thread members now and they'll tell you I barely follow anymore at all. I just get annoyed when someone dumps on something when had they been, say, born in that culture the thought would have probably never crossed their mind.